Home   Forum   Wiki   Notes   Register   FAQ   Sitemap   About Us   Contact Us  

Western & Indian

Topic started by Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on Thu Aug 23 17:21:47 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have seen the following comments a lot of times in this DF.

"the instruments used are western" .... "This song is like "western music" " etc..

I want to know, what is the definition of tamil sounding music and what are tamil instruments? I asked this question to a well know lyricist and he asked me to look up "silapathigaram" for the answer. I dont think he was trying to answer my question.

Among the instruments that have been used in the last 4 decades by tfm MD's I think a majority of instruments were western.

So what is the subtelity that classifies music as "western" and "Indian"? Is it the instruments being used or the carnautic/tamil folk touch the song gets?

for e.g I wud say guitar, violin, flute, drums etc as western instruments and tabala as Indian (although i dunno if its tamilian) ------ to shatter some myths about the western/indian definitions.

so as an educative purpose it would be nice if people gave an account of how much tamilian has tfm been for the past 3-4 decades. and shed some light on what attribute classifies a musical score as tamilian/western.

I am more interested in tamilain than Indian.

---

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 63.89.188.175) on: Tue Sep 4 13:23:21 EDT 2001
  
  KS,
  Not to play the devil's advocate here, but IR, following his older brother Pavalar Varadharajan (a staunch communist and atheist)used to perform on communist propaganda shows. To my knowledge, IR was an atheist or at least an agnostic until the time of "Thaai Mugaambigai". This is when he met with some religious heads and became pious. He released an album on Mugambigai and called her his Kuladheivam.
  
  To this day, I prefer much of what IR produced before "Thaai Mugaambigai" and stretching up to "Sagalakala Vallavan". After that the banner movies took over and smothered his creativity leaving little room for occasional gems like "Mudhal Mariyaathai" and "Sindhu Bairavi" after that.
  
  Whether religion enhanced his music or held it back is hard to tell when so many other factors played a part:
  -aging
  -an established career leaving little room or need for experimentation
  -split with VM
  -brief but telling split with SPB
  -big banner movies with hero-worship and other stale themes for music
  -Vaali's contemptuous lyrics that didn't quite suit IR's many folk movies
  
  and on and on...
  
  
• From: Jeera (@ 206.175.176.2) on: Tue Sep 4 14:36:17 EDT 2001
  
  Udhaya
  
  "Not to play the devil's advocate here, but IR, following his older brother Pavalar Varadharajan (a staunch communist and atheist)used to perform on communist propaganda shows. To my knowledge, IR was an atheist or at least an agnostic until the time of "Thaai Mugaambigai". This is when he met with some religious heads and became pious. He released an album on Mugambigai and called her his Kuladheivam"
  
  - To my knowledge you are wrong there, IR was a atheist alright but he changed after his marriage(I am not sure when he married though and not after thai mugambigai). I read somewhere (I think Karthik or yuvan's interview) where they talk about how their father took to being religous. It seems IR's wife is very religious and she is instrumental in changing his attitudes towards religion.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: NCR (@ 206.30.30.2) on: Tue Sep 4 14:37:25 EDT 2001
  
  Guys I missed a lot of discussion during the long weekend. Here are my views on the discussions so far. Lot of good postings from many. It took almost 3 hours to read each and every posting. Sorry for my big posting.
  
  The word culture as per Dictionary is :
  
  : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon man's capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations
  b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group
  c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes a company or corporation
  
  This can be applied to anything like music, education, life style etc.,
  
  But mainly the Indian music whether North Indian ( Hindustani ) or South Indian ( carnatic ) are the styles fundamentally been a spiritual aid & the vehicle for the soul to realise & attain the Universal Soul ( Paramatman). It lays stress on melody, harmony being secondary though vital. source: http://www.saigan.com
  
  Basically India is called as Karma Bhoomi. That means Hindu's basically beleive on Karma. We feel that we need to attain the Universal Soul. This can be done by various ways, Music is one of the way to achieve that. There are many other ways but that would be too much to discuss. Musical greats like Thyagarajar, Muthuswamy deekshitar etc., attained the Universal soul by the choosing the music as their path. We follow the same style making it as our culture, but without knowing about that. We listen the music just to our pleasure.
  
  KViswanath conveys this message in his movie swarna kamalam. Any aritst who involves in what he is doing will know the difference with doing without involving self into that.
  
  Talking about Indian Music, Guys here is some info on Indian music.
  
  Sage Bharata defines 'Music' as the confluence or combination of Swara, Tala, & Pada - all in harmonious blend. Sage Matanga defines 'Raga' as a combination of musical notes that gives delight. a melody arrangement to project a definite mood, emotion or feeling. Brahma was the origin of music inspired by Sama Veda. From one note, music progressed to three, then five & crystallized in seven notes, the Sapta Swaras. Sapta Swaras are Shadja, Rishaba, Gandhara, Madyama, Panchama, Daivata & Nishada. Swara is a musical note. Swaras are reputed to have been inspired by sounds of birds & animals such as :
  Shadja -- Peacock
  Rishaba -- Ox
  Gandhara -- Goat
  Madyama -- Krouncha bird
  Panchama -- Cuckoo
  Daivata -- Horse
  Nishada -- Elephant
  
  Scale means stepwise arrangement of notes which when successively invoked develop & provide melody. Shadjam is basic or adhara swara which is the basis for the other six notes. Madyama is pitchforked between two traids. Panchama denotes the fifth place. When Sama Veda was recited ( Sama ganam), the spouse accompanied on veena or flute.
  
  From Pranavam emanates Satyajatam, Vaamanam, Tatpurusham, Eesanam & Aghoram which are the five faces of Lord Siva, from which the musical notes emanated & passed on to Posterity. Siva taught Parvati, the prime Sishya & it was successively passed on to Tumburu, Narada, Nandikeswara & Saraswati.
  
  Initial instruments were :
  Damaru of Siva, Flute of Krishna, Conch of Vishnu, Drum of Nandi, Veena of Saraswati & Narada, Thambur of Thumburu. Lord Buddha reinvigorated his teachings & message with music on his Parivadini veena, made of gold, having 21 strings. Sama Veda is well-known as musically rendered. Rig Veda too is reputed to have been chanted once musically. Thevaram by Appar, Sundarar & Sambandar and Divya Prabandam by Vaishnavite Azhwars came up during 7-9th centuries.
  
  Thats the reason why each and every lord is assigned to an instrument. Here are few examples.
  Instrumental music has universal appeal, the richness and soothing tones can be appreciated
  without language and regional barriers. The history of Indian musical instruments can be
  gathered from various sources such as Literature (folk, general, music), Visual representations (paintings, sculptures, reliefs, models). Most of the Indian musical instruments remain still in use.
  
  Almost every Indian God is associated with a musical instrument. Brahma's consort Saraswathi is seen playing the veena. Vishnu holds the conch, Siva the damaru. Krishna - an incarnation of Lord Vishnu is supposed to have mesmerised all the gopikas by playing his flute ( Venu Gaanam). Sage Narada carries the tambura, Nandi - Lord Siva's disciple plays the Mathalam. musicological texts ascribe the mahati ( a twenty-one stringed veena) to sage Narada.
  
  In the Ramayana and Mahabaratha, there are several mention of use of musical instruments.
  When Rama performed the Aswamedha Yaga, several skilled musicians were said to have performed. Ramayana refers to veena, dundhubi, mridangam, bheri, ghata, panava, pataha, dindima. When the priests performed puja, their wives were supposed to have played the veena. The conch had been used during wartime to signify the beginning and end of the day, to alert the army about intruders. Drums were used to convey messages not only during wartime, but also during peace.
  
  There are many musical instruments to be found among the sculptures existing in various temples, cave temples and Buddhist stupas in all parts of India. The therapeutic use of musical instruments had been understood from early days.
  
  Music has been part of our culture. The way it sounds is the difference. Again KViswanath's
  Sankarabharanam movie tells the difference of Indian and western music when one pop singer tries to humiliate Sankarabharam Sankara Sastry.
  
  Before ending,
  
  Unnai thudhikka arul tha innisayudan
  Bless me, O Lord! to praise thee through Music
  
  
  Music is an ocean and I am singing praises of it, but from the shore. We are sure that maestros will join us to lead us through this ocean to glean the richness and beauty of this timeless traditional art that lives with us from the days of the vedas.
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 63.89.188.175) on: Tue Sep 4 14:47:04 EDT 2001
  
  Jeera,
  What I wrote about his brother and him performing is a fact. He used to perform a lot around Madhurai near my native place.
  
  Until the time of "Thaai Mugaambigai" all IR albums showed him with his hand over a guitar sporting a head full of hair. After "Thaai Mugaambigai" he shaved his head and refused at least for a time to sing anything but devotional songs in movies. That and the subsequent devotional album is what I based my post on. I've heard accounts of him meeting with a key Hindu saint who changed him. But this I can't substantiate. If his sons attribute his change to their mom then I'll take their word for it. But we both agree he was an atheist at one time.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.25.96) on: Tue Sep 4 16:16:59 EDT 2001
  
  Udhaya, I am not sure if there was a split between SPB and IR any time..I heard that the break in his singing was more due to SPB's throat problems..in 88 and 89 when they were supposed to have been broken up came albums like Puthu puthu arthangal, aboorva sagotharargal, Vetri Vizha etc.
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Tue Sep 4 16:28:26 EDT 2001
  
  A curious question as an upshot of NCR's posting
  
  "suprabhatham", "thirupaavai", all are religious praises to the, lord through music. "divya prabhandam" also has a dinstinct musical intonation to the way it is rendered. however some slokas are not recited musically. (like the ones said in marriage or other funtions).
  
  The question is why are some praises and prayers rendered differently, even though all of them are for a similar purpose?
  
  why do you all think was the need to have music as a style of communication or expression?
  
  Logically I wud assume people wud learn to speak first. speak fastly next and then learn to sing.
  
  do u think singing or music at some point of time as an advancement of communication through speech, become a modern form of communication (in the the very olden years)?
  
  cud music have been the only form of communication is olden times?
  
  If yes ! why did we revert back to just talking?
  
  If No! why did'nt musiccal singing as a primary form of communication catch along?
  
  I think the fundametal approach and attitude taken towards looking at music as an enhancement to offering praises/prayers or communication has only been seen as a value add but not the mainstream way!
  
  why? is it only because music is difficult. If that is so from an outsiders perpective Tamil maybe a difficult language, but there are people who speak it! so why wasnt music, just like languages did not develop into a form of communication! or if it was previously so why did it stop!
  
  I think the answers to these questions will add input as to how spiritual/religious music is!
  
  we will also know whether its is quite native for music/songs to be rendered by a spiritual person for such an act to be called natural and non-religious people rendering it just a side-effect.
  
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.128.128) on: Tue Sep 4 19:16:05 EDT 2001
  
  Kiru,
  Thanks for sharing ur opinion. U r very right w.r.t. IR’s Indian-ness. No doubt he is very knowledgeable in Carnatic music and its nuances, besides others. And he is wise enough to make use of this knowledge for film music. (And yes, I read Balaji’s article the very first day he gave the link. It makes for great reading.)
  
  Reg: Sandhya Vandanam and dancing in the dark – Those were mere illustrations of what both have to offer in the context of explaining how difficult it is to be disciplined and how easy it is to let oneself free to a way of life that a typical Indian cannot relate to (some alien this!!:-)) I was just stressing on self-control and discipline as necessities in controlling this (culture) change. Anyway, I’m sure u understood me. Thanks for that.
  
  And with me, no need to mention IMHO:-)
  
  Udhaya,
  Whatever IR was in his early days doesn’t matter now. (For all that u know, he might have accompanied his brother just as a means of livelihood for he didn’t have too many options then!!!) What I am happy about is the fact that today he is devotional/spiritual/religious enough (cosmician, :-)), or whatever u may want to call it, which makes him value his nativity/culture/Indian-ness and sustain all kinds of pressures, and make his compositions sound more Indian.. He is wise enough to make use of his knowledge and be experimentative/innovative in his own way and yet sound more Indian most of the times, without fearing failures. It doesn’t mean that IR or anybody else should sound purely carnatic/folkish/Indian/Tamilian as that is not possible in this medium which is primarily a source of entertainment. After all, that is why all kinds of music find a place in TFM/IFM.
  
  As kiru said in another thread, “It does not matter to me what musical genre is getting borrowed or adapted to the Indian situation. The total effect should be Indian. I don’t think I can express better than this.”
  
  To quote Shri. Rajaji:
  
  “The way of devotion is not different from the way of knowledge or Jnana. When intelligence matures and lodges securely in the mind, it becomes wisdom. When wisdom is integrated with life, and issues out in action, it becomes Bhakti. Knowledge, when it becomes fully mature, is Bhakti. If it does not get transformed into Bhakti, such knowledge is useless tinsel. To believe that Jnana and Bhakti, knowledge and devotion, are different from each other, is ignorance.”
  
  Today, almost all the MDs are more influenced by outsiders. And that influence only shows in their music. While it is a welcome to make use of the knowledge and technology available in being innovative and sounding different/fresh, they find it difficult to sound more Indian for various reasons. Now, that is something not good and in the long run is certain to make our TFM/IFM sound less-and-less “Indian”.
  
  And believe me, if someone feels that such a change that kills Indian-ness in music is welcome, then be assured that you are taking to another music culture, you are not taking our music to them.
  
  Reg.: being devotional/spiritual/religious and music – I had mentioned quiet a few greats of TFM of the last century who have some sort of devotional/spiritual/religious inclinations. Somehow missed KJY in the list. My apologies for that and so include him. Can someone mention a few greats of TFM/IFM who don’t have any sort of devotional/spiritual/religious inclinations !?
  
  I feel that would be quiet difficult a task if not impossible…which is why I believe that “ALL THE GREATS IN MUSIC FROM INDIA ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SOME SORT OF DEVOTIONAL/SPIRITUAL/RELIGIOUS INCLINATIONS and it is such inclinations that WILL MAKE YOU CARE ENOUGH FOR YOUR CULTURE.
  
  
  

---

List all pages of this thread

Post comments