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Western & Indian

Topic started by Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on Thu Aug 23 17:21:47 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have seen the following comments a lot of times in this DF.

"the instruments used are western" .... "This song is like "western music" " etc..

I want to know, what is the definition of tamil sounding music and what are tamil instruments? I asked this question to a well know lyricist and he asked me to look up "silapathigaram" for the answer. I dont think he was trying to answer my question.

Among the instruments that have been used in the last 4 decades by tfm MD's I think a majority of instruments were western.

So what is the subtelity that classifies music as "western" and "Indian"? Is it the instruments being used or the carnautic/tamil folk touch the song gets?

for e.g I wud say guitar, violin, flute, drums etc as western instruments and tabala as Indian (although i dunno if its tamilian) ------ to shatter some myths about the western/indian definitions.

so as an educative purpose it would be nice if people gave an account of how much tamilian has tfm been for the past 3-4 decades. and shed some light on what attribute classifies a musical score as tamilian/western.

I am more interested in tamilain than Indian.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: srikanth (@ 24.4.253.20) on: Fri Aug 31 18:42:41 EDT 2001
  
  it is my mistake to have discused music here :)
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.128.128) on: Fri Aug 31 19:01:44 EDT 2001
  
  Not really a mistake. I really liked your posting.
  
  It is just that people like me who are less learned in music can only enjoy postings from people like you but cannot interfere, right !!!:-)
  
  
• From: mahabs (@ 203.197.138.163) on: Sat Sep 1 10:20:19 EDT 2001
  
  this thing about peace of mind is a little bit confusing. i feel a creation is born when the mind is in agony. a genius' mind never rests until it attains the perfection it wants.
  
  after that only, it achieves peace of mind.
  
  this is the case atleast in other art forms like poetry and painting.
  
  what about music? any composer here can tell his opinion.
  
  and reg. rituals, if following them one can get p.o.m., why buddha rejected it? he rejeted god too and nevertheless obtained p.o.m.
  
  he created a new culture.
  
  hesse's siddhartha rejected buddha too and he followed the mother nature and learned.
  
  anbudan
  
  mahabs
  
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.53) on: Sat Sep 1 11:38:16 EDT 2001
  
  Mahabs...
  
  IR had once said, out of his spiritual humility that whatever were his musical outpourings are the results of his 'unburnt karma'. If we see things from that plane, then definitely there is nothing like "genius" or "creativity"....the sole aim of Life is to realize the Self within and wake up....like Buddha did...rituals are an aid for some..it definitely helps...some may not need it...the Universe is such a wide canvas..that anything and everything is possible.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Sat Sep 1 15:51:56 EDT 2001
  
  Hey guys..you are all a digressive lot. I tried to discuss about Western and Indian music but there was not much participation from others. You guys digressed to MJ vs ARR, again I tried to elaborate to contribute there. I even went through my collection of rock/pop albums to remind me about the changes introduced by MJ. By the time, I come back to write about it all now you guys are discussing western vs indian culture..hmm..man..I am getting old and I cant keep up with you guys :)
  
  Anyways, KS first let us all know how old you are ? :) :) we will discuss more after that..
  
  
• From: KS (@ 166.44.246.11) on: Sat Sep 1 16:50:01 EDT 2001
  
  kiru,
  
  digression:
  between 20 and 40. Any problems!? I don't mind learning things from anybody younger to me. Also, I don't read many books. In fact, inspite of being in IT field, i have not bought even a single book relating to my field of work:-)
  
  
• From: rf (@ 64.12.106.66) on: Sat Sep 1 21:47:44 EDT 2001
  
  cosmician, i really subsribe to the theory that the universe is very generous and it is in us to plumb to the depths of our own consciousness to realize that is no limit to what an individual can do.
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.53) on: Sun Sep 2 00:25:31 EDT 2001
  
  I agree RF :)
  Sorry Kiru..couldn't resist sharing my bit reading Mahab's posting..didn't have the patience to read through the previous stuff..u r right ..digression is becoming my second nature here :)
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.53) on: Sun Sep 2 00:29:43 EDT 2001
  
  Digression (here we go again !)
  
  KS
  >>inspite of being in IT field, i have not bought even a single book relating to my field of work:-) <<
  
  That is fantastic..could you please share your secret of how you are able to keep away from the book buying impulse ? I'm not exactly from the IT field but I've succumbed to my love of Web Dev and have invested in a lot of unnecessary books and now I dont know how to get rid of them (I've thought of forming a Book Sharing network..let's see..would like Dfers ideas and views...)
  
  
• From: KS (@ 166.44.246.201) on: Sun Sep 2 01:11:47 EDT 2001
  
  Seriously, can anybody reason out why the 'greats' of TFM (and in general IFM) are religious? (why are they god fearing, have some sort of religious inclinations) In general, why are the 'greats in music' of India religious?
  
  ex: MKT, MSV-Rama Murthy, KVM, IR, etc
  MS, DK Pattammal, MLV, KB Sundarambal, Leela, Jikki, PS, SJ, Vani Jayaram, Chitra
  GNB, Dr. Balamurali Krishna, TMS, Seergazhi Govindarajan, AM Raja, Ghantasala, PBS, SPB
  
  OR
  
  Why haven't people who are not religious become great in TFM/IFM? You can name some if there are any!!!
  
  I believe it is only such religious people who can sound more "Indian" in their music and improve the standard of our FM. People who are not religious, listen to more of western music, encourage more of it, booze and dance in clubs cannot improve the standard of our FM.
  
  I personally think that, as far as Indian music is concerned, to become great one needs to be religious.
  
  
• From: KS (@ 166.44.246.201) on: Sun Sep 2 01:19:43 EDT 2001
  
  cosmician,
  
  digression:
  :-)
  chinnappo lerndhae romba padikira pazhakam kidayaadhu...so, never had the 'book buying impulse' in the first place to resist:))
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.53) on: Sun Sep 2 03:56:01 EDT 2001
  
  KS...
  
  I think you should say "spiritual"...
  
  
• From: mahabs (@ 203.197.138.163) on: Sun Sep 2 05:53:55 EDT 2001
  
  cosmician
  
  i am an ir fan but not for his views. i don't believe in karma. other than that, i agree with you. anyhow, let us end this digression.
  
  let us go back to the original topic. there were so many interesting discussions. but, i request you not to talk about other things.
  
  bharath must be very frustrated. (though he contributes a lot to all the topics!)
  
  anbudan
  
  mahabs
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.53) on: Sun Sep 2 06:57:33 EDT 2001
  
  Righto..Mahabs..I hope not to digress any further !
  
  
• From: KS (@ 166.44.247.177) on: Sun Sep 2 11:34:49 EDT 2001
  
  To those who think I have digressed a lot:
  
  The thread said,
  /*
  so as an educative purpose it would be nice if people gave an account of how much tamilian has tfm been for the past 3-4 decades
  */
  To this effect, mine was just an analysis taking into account the last decade or so of TFM. It is just that I went ahead and tried to identify the "root cause" for sounding more "Western" and not "Indian" - the root cause being majority of us (starting with MDs and ending with us) not being religious/spiritual (cosmician, :-) thanks!!) enough.
  
  The thread said,
  /*
  shed some light on what attribute classifies a musical score as tamilian/western.
  */
  To this, I had responded even before my analysis, in a small way that I could as I am not too knowledgeable in terms of technicalities of music. However, kiru, cosmician, NCR and later srikanth contributed in a significant way as they are much learned.
  
  Being religious/spiritual certainly makes one care ENOUGH (understand that "care" is different from "care enough"), and it is such people who will sound more "Tamilian"/"Indian".
  
  If all this was totally irrelevant to this thread, then I stop here. However, I am sure that whatever I have contributed is not junk and is worth a thought!!!
  
  i.e., if at all you really care enough:-)
  
  cosmician,
  
  Digression:
  Though spiritual is probably a better word, can one be spiritual without being religious!? just curious...
  
  
• From: KS (@ 166.44.246.39) on: Sun Sep 2 17:32:03 EDT 2001
  
  For the benefit of those who wanted the definition of "culture",
  
  Digression:
  "It is basically a value system followed by a community - a system that is made up of a set of beliefs, ethics, moral values and rules of conduct, and procedures that help up-hold them. These define, guide and control the way of upbringing and living of the community with the general objective of enabling each individual of the community become a better human being and lead a purposeful and meaningful life in the larger interest of humanity in specific, and life in general.”
  
  Such a culture can undergo changes over a period of time. It is the responsibility of the individuals concerned to control these changes in the interests of their own community.
  
  The above is purely my closest definition and can be corrected/improvised/perfected.
  
  ayyayyo!!! padikkaadha medhayaa, illa padichcha kezhudhayaa - vonnumae theriyalayae, yedhuvumae puriyalayae..!!!
  
  I can’t believe I said it:-)
  
  
  
• From: peeps (@ 64.133.24.6) on: Tue Sep 4 11:51:47 EDT 2001
  
  I too cant beleive that U said that KS !!!.
  NOM..:--)
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Tue Sep 4 12:50:26 EDT 2001
  
  KS,
  Indianness in IR's music comes from
  1) Using native rhythm/percussion
  2) Using carnatic rAgams/folk melodies or derivatives of it (I think IR might have made lots of songs which are based or inspired from rAgams. A friend of mine who is into carnatic says IR understands the very essense of rAgams and gives it in his own way as simple tunes for the film music listeners. Also, read Balaji's article, link provided in IR new albums thread)
  
  Re: spritiuality and music. I think music in many cultures has been dedicated to God. This is because it can be elevated from a emotional/sensual enjoyment to a subconsciously intellectual enjoyment. Imaging, elaborating on a rAgam to your object of desire, she is going to think you love the music more than her and ditch you :) So music has developed in an environment where it has been dedicated to a much higher form of love (where you do not expect any reciprocation, that some people do it for the sake of going to heaven is a different issue :))
  
  The corollary is not true, IR for example might elevate his maternal love to a divine level and still come up with musically rich tunes.
  
  Re: dancing in the dark with unknown strangers - you are unnecessarily increasing the scope of the discussions here in this forum :)
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Tue Sep 4 12:55:27 EDT 2001
  
  Again, all IMHO.
  
  

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