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Western & Indian

Topic started by Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on Thu Aug 23 17:21:47 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have seen the following comments a lot of times in this DF.

"the instruments used are western" .... "This song is like "western music" " etc..

I want to know, what is the definition of tamil sounding music and what are tamil instruments? I asked this question to a well know lyricist and he asked me to look up "silapathigaram" for the answer. I dont think he was trying to answer my question.

Among the instruments that have been used in the last 4 decades by tfm MD's I think a majority of instruments were western.

So what is the subtelity that classifies music as "western" and "Indian"? Is it the instruments being used or the carnautic/tamil folk touch the song gets?

for e.g I wud say guitar, violin, flute, drums etc as western instruments and tabala as Indian (although i dunno if its tamilian) ------ to shatter some myths about the western/indian definitions.

so as an educative purpose it would be nice if people gave an account of how much tamilian has tfm been for the past 3-4 decades. and shed some light on what attribute classifies a musical score as tamilian/western.

I am more interested in tamilain than Indian.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: srikanth (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Fri Aug 31 17:32:33 EDT 2001
  
  Bharath, You are a guessing.
  
  This is my view:
  Indian music is monophonic. Structure of south Indian music is that we are melody oriented. Our music is not polyphonic, meaning our classical music plays one note at a time, and the accompaniment follows the singer. They don’t counter each other.
  Violin matched this quality. Violin has legato (meaning when you change from note to another the change should be smooth), piano does not have this quality to suite Carnatic. It goes with pianos (and harmonium).
  
  Also some say violin is very close to human voice. It has better control than guitar or piano to handle hardcore Carnatic.
  
  These are some of the reason we got into this.
  
  Also in the heading Bharath has listed out Flute to be a foreign instrument,
  I don’t think so, as mentioned “Lord Krishna plays flute”
  
  Now Why guitar is more popular, these days,
  I have read guitar came from near East (Babylonia, If I remember it correct)
  In Egypt and Rome they had instruments close to guitar, might the predecessor of the guitar. Some say Italy was capital of guitar in 16th-17th century. But there are books to prove similar instruments were there in 3rd century BC.
  
  The reason we did not adapt this in our classical music is once again polyphony,
  Then there was no proper guru to teach this, in later days light music used it more. Hence Carnatic genre avoided it. Sukumar prasad and Guitar Prasana were first few I know who broke the wall and proved instrument has not got nothing to do with the music form.
  Why mandolin was not used, this must have come from lute or during medieval-Renaissance mandola in 14-15th century, this is also a polyphonic instrument, however We all know Srinivas plays it so well., same goes to Sax, kadri Gopal nath...so still argue to me tonal quality of sax does not suite carnatic. I don’t agree to this. Nadam is excellent is any instrument. That is the reason we call them as music instrument.
  
  Most of the so-called western instruments tend to support any form of music if we know how to play them properly. Some say it is wrong to say we cannot play one form of music using instruments from different form of music. I agree to an extent, as we cannot play a grinding hard rock using a Veena. It will not suite the music,.
  Our instruments are unique and are tuned or have been created to our form music, while western instruments are often open to any form of music. This is the reason we see more western instruments around our music these days.
  
  Any other counter opinionS ?
  
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Fri Aug 31 17:35:00 EDT 2001
  
  so still argue to me tonal quality
  read it as
  some still argues to me that tonal quality
  
  
• From: RangA (@ 64.209.142.190) on: Fri Aug 31 17:40:51 EDT 2001
  
  I am sorry to insert my nose (mookai nozaikkaRadhu transliteration) knowing very well that my nose could be cut with incisive words. Howvever, I cannot resist the temptation.
  Going back to the discussion between Bharath and Udhaya, I feel both were right and also wrong. Let me explain it this way.
  Every caring father aged 30-40 would tell his less than 10 year old son to wake up in the morning, study this or that, to observe this or that manners.
  There may be a few fathers aged 60-70 would tell his 30 year old son the same thing.
  It would be surprising to see a 100 years old father telling his 60 year old son the same thing.
  So what is the point?.
  Tradition, culture, manners are all a starting point. The discipline is only till you master it. You do not need them all the time. All those are just means, but the end is to practice what suits you within the values of your own. Besides all thse change with time. depending on the necessity. But definitely you need these starting points witout which you will not know what is what. Every situation is assessed against the latest values absorbed and compared and the new set of values formed. That is evolution. So to do this comparison you need a set of values at that point of time. The purpose of religion, culture, discipline is to provide you that starting values. Some people evolve beyond that and have no need of that discipline. Some others evolve within the boundaries of discipline.
  To say one set of evolution is superior to another is a subjective biased view.
  (Happaa nallaa kozappiyaachu!)BTW, real clarity is more confusion!!
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.128.128) on: Fri Aug 31 18:37:46 EDT 2001
  
  Udhaya,
  
  First of all, let me tell you that I am neither a verocious reader like you nor have purchased many Carnatic albums. With due respects to you and all others who are learned and feel alike, here I go.
  
  I am glad that you are able to enjoy both, and yet, strike a balance. But the majority of people don’t exercise enough control over themselves. Which is how and why things deteriorate.
  
  /*
  I vehemently disagree. I go to parties, I love dancing in the dark to my favorite R&B music, and yes I drink at these clubs too, oooh sinful me, right?
  
  I read poetry by Bharathidasan, Bharathy, and other modern poets. I buy novels and short stories by the best Thamizh writers. I buy CDs of Carnatic musicians (so I’m economically supporting my culture get it?). And after I consume our home-grown culture through literature, poetry and music, I review it and talk about it to people so they’ll go and buy the ones I recommend and indulge our culture some more.
  */
  The things mentioned in the 2nd stanza can be done along and/or shared with our blood-relatives, near and dear people. But probably not the ones mentioned in the 1st stanza. Did anyone wonder why?
  
  If some of you vehemently say you do, then you probably believe in a different culture or don’t feel strong enough about safeguarding ours and my analysis would not make sense. So, let’s leave it there.
  
  /*
  What about literature? What about philosophy? What about following your elders?
  */
  Indian literature, philosophy and elders never took more of West. They don’t really control our FM. Wish all of us really followed our elders!!
  
  /*
  Why shouldn’t people seek out what’s good for them?
  */
  Not everybody is intelligent enough to choose the good. In fact, majority of them make mistakes. The youth are more vulnerable as they lack in experience and foreseeing. Freedom is good as long as it is not being misused. Hence, we need control mechanisms. With no control mechanisms any system would fail.
  That is why our elders too have been following some system or the other. And we have been following it lesser. That is the reason why our elders are more disciplined than us (though some may feel otherwise:-)).
  
  It is the same lack of discipline that is cause for today’s sorry state of FM. I believe that WITHOUT DISCIPLINE THERE CANNOT BE ACHIEVEMENTS. And it is in this regard that I like IR, inspite of the last 9 yrs. (with due respects to the lesser known few other MDs)
  
  /*
  Why should they stick to movies for expanding their minds? Why don’t they go to schools and libraries?
  */
  I never said or meant that (Although, should agree that it can be seen as another source of it…anaavashyamaana nakkal thaanae idhu:-))
  
  /*
  Carnatic music and its practitioners…….
  */
  I feel we are losing them. Well, 2-3 generations before, we might have had many ladies and even gents of our family learning some art or the other. How many in our home do that now?. If the same continues, how many of our people do you think will practice in future?
  
  Also, I feel that western music has become so popular amongst us only because of movies and music videos. Many of us know only our film MDs but not the western artists.
  
  /*
  I’m not religious, I don’t know what sandhya vandhanam is nor do I care. So, in your opinion, I’m undisciplined, irreverent to my culture and am endangering it, huh? Don’t speak too loud, man, I fear you might start your own fundamentalist cult. This is unbelievable to read. Do you take into account the honest work I do, the taxes I pay as a law-abiding citizen or the thousands of dollars I spend consuming products made in India?
  */
  U either did not understand me or didn’t read my posting to mahabs. I said “Believe me, only religiously inclined people are more disciplined. It takes lots of hard work and perseverance to be disciplined.”
  It just meant that religious people are more disciplined. And yes, almost all others are less disciplined. My stress was not on Sandhya Vandanam but on achieving internal peace and purity of mind.
  
  /*
  Hey, then IR should stop using violins, horns, keyboards and mixers as these are western inventions right? Why stop there, we should all give up cars, traveling in planes, watches, modern toilets… anything we didn’t invent in our culture right?
  */
  I said IFM should sound more Indian. As far as TFM goes, IR is the only one who is working in that direction without fearing failures. And I want him to continue doing that. It is only after ’93 that FM has started sounding more western. This doesn’t mean that anything western should be abolished now.
  
  /*
  Please rethink your stance.
  */
  My stance remains the same.
  
  Udhaya,
  Your reading and Carnatic interests are fine. But unfortunately, you are still not in a position to have any kind of impact on our FM. This is not to belittle you but just to state that even many of the learned can’t really help. It is only the key people who are part of the film industry that can make this change come about. I feel that craze for others music and dance really started with “chiku buku chiku raile”. That dance, choreography and music were totally new to Indian audience and they were awestruck. And today things have only deteriorated!! We can encourage other kinds of music as long as they don’t kill the Indian-ness that we own.
  
  It is in this regard that I really liked IR.
  
  Understand the bottomline in my posting. That is what I had to say.
  
  All this, w.r.t. our FM.
  
  
  Digression:
  Self-control and discipline are 2 very important qualities that would help us lead a better life. Religious inclinations help control, tune and purify your mind , provide peace from within and make you a better human being. Unfortunately, they are not given their due importance.
  End Digression
  
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.128.128) on: Fri Aug 31 18:42:13 EDT 2001
  
  Digression:
  Trend,
  I was not trying to define culture.
  
  All,
  I never said that rituals should be followed. It depends on one's belief.
  
  I never said that only religious people are disciplined. They are certainly more disciplined than others.
  End Digression
  
  

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