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Western & Indian

Topic started by Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on Thu Aug 23 17:21:47 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have seen the following comments a lot of times in this DF.

"the instruments used are western" .... "This song is like "western music" " etc..

I want to know, what is the definition of tamil sounding music and what are tamil instruments? I asked this question to a well know lyricist and he asked me to look up "silapathigaram" for the answer. I dont think he was trying to answer my question.

Among the instruments that have been used in the last 4 decades by tfm MD's I think a majority of instruments were western.

So what is the subtelity that classifies music as "western" and "Indian"? Is it the instruments being used or the carnautic/tamil folk touch the song gets?

for e.g I wud say guitar, violin, flute, drums etc as western instruments and tabala as Indian (although i dunno if its tamilian) ------ to shatter some myths about the western/indian definitions.

so as an educative purpose it would be nice if people gave an account of how much tamilian has tfm been for the past 3-4 decades. and shed some light on what attribute classifies a musical score as tamilian/western.

I am more interested in tamilain than Indian.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: just like to know (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Fri Aug 31 15:11:36 EDT 2001
  
  what is our culture ? can any one define it for the well being of masses like me.
  :)
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Fri Aug 31 15:21:07 EDT 2001
  
  //", we should all give up cars, traveling in planes, watches, modern toilets… anything we didn’t invent in our culture right? "//
  these r the progess of tranport science something that does not violate what we call and proclaim is our tradition. if we moved from "mattu vandi" to aeroplane it is an improvement.
  
  if we move from tamil folk to western its a "shift". and the debate is whether thats good or bad!
  
  //"I’m not religious, I don’t know what sandhya vandhanam is nor do I care. So, in your opinion, I’m undisciplined, irreverent to my culture and am endangering it, huh? "//
  
  //"fundamentalist cult"//
  
  what an easy word to dismiss anything that questions ur religious adherence!?
  
  //". Do you take into account the honest work I do, the taxes I pay as a law-abiding citizen or the thousands of dollars I spend consuming products made in India? "//
  
  those r ur duties to ur constitution and the last is for u to enjoy indian products.
  
  the fundametal purpose of life and the reasons for ur good life and existence as a human being has a a different definition in religious. The people whom yu are indebted (to pay religious taxes) are defined differently. so in a cartain sense there are other duties one needs to perform.
  
  abiding the american constitution and helping indian food market does not fullfill religious duties. I think u ahve confused the 2!!!
  
  
  
  
  
  religion is part of our culture and u urself said u are not religious so there is some aspect of our culture u dont seem to agree with.
  
  yes! I do think that if a person who does not follow his culture's tradition to a reasonable extent he is indisciplined!
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Fri Aug 31 15:23:57 EDT 2001
  
  srikanth,
  
  impossible to define in my opinion! can cover patches of it! this thread was started just to know what is the indian (tamil) music culture and how it is violated!(apparently since arr and IR at some points of time have been alleged to have violated it!)
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ 12.5.10.153) on:
  
  
  just for the heck of it....
  
  Has the indian army violated the culture.. ?
  Has the indian goverment violated the culture ?
  Have anyone one of us violated the culture ?
  like for a so called religious hindu, he is not supposed to travel across ocean, but we have temple here in pittsburgh, even God has travelled across oceans,...is this a violation ?
  :)
  
  
  what is the indian (tamil) music culture and how it is violated?
  violation is not the right word, experiment is the right word, arr and ir did not do anything illegal...here.....where does violation come in.
  
  I also posted one question about...on instruments.. which was overlooked ,i want someone to try to answer that.
  
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 63.89.188.205) on: Fri Aug 31 15:41:15 EDT 2001
  
  Bharath,
  I don't practice religion, but I read Indian philosophy, literature and follow Indian music which I deem as more reflective of culture than one's religion.
  
  To believe that only religious people have discipline is a very fascist statement worthy of a fundamentalist cult. No true Hindu should feel this way. I have read religious texts with philosophical interest, and nowhere is there a hardcore mandate such as what KS has pronounced. Religious rituals are interpretations by people. Enough said. We can get off on a tangent here but I won't.
  
  You have assumed that my consuming Indian products is only food, so you have dismissed me with an easy statement too haven't you?
  
  Anyway. To each his own. If you guys believe that enacting rituals is the only way to attain discipline, then I'm outta here.
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Fri Aug 31 15:43:48 EDT 2001
  
  srikanth!
  
  enna oru kelvi'ya irukku no answers at all!(that privilege is only to us, as an expert u r disqualified from asking questions :-) )
  
  i assume u r responding to my refernce to "music culture and how it is violated!"
  
  with all sincerity! the discussion is still a question...
  
  "has anything been violated?"
  
  or if we regard "violation" in the strictest sense as an invariant of time and hence incorrect.
  
  no the discussion does not assume something has already been violated.
  
  as u know the topic of this thread more so attacks our psycology of assuming X == tradition
  and when Y arrives we think Y is a violation not knowing that X initially was a violation of W.
  
  i hope i did not do a cho ramaswamy! :-)
  
  
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Fri Aug 31 15:54:29 EDT 2001
  
  udhaya,
  
  KS did talk about "religious discipline" as a means of acheiving discipline. not a neccesarry and sufficient condition!
  
  so as far as religious discipline is concerned. yes u need to follow the doctrines of the relevant religion! In some religions u can choose not to follow and it still not face the brunt of ur family!
  
  If u take hinduism as an example! there may be words which can be interpreted (rather conveniently I should say!) that to be a perfect hindu u dont need to follow the "N" rituals.
  
  but there is also pages and pages that will be dedicated to the set of rituals we need to follow as the best way to reach god. why should we ignore that! ( we say to small children that if 80 is possible then 60 is not a good mark. that doesnt mean 60 is junk but just thatu can do better)
  
  //"To believe that only religious people have discipline is a very fascist statement "//
  
  //"consuming Indian products is only food,"//
  
  //"If you guys believe that enacting rituals is the only way to attain discipline"//
  
  all the "only"'s is only ur assumption. i guess u r casting our discussions on "also", "only" to a stone.
  
  
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Fri Aug 31 16:01:04 EDT 2001
  
  Udhaya,
  
  Digression:
  
  I agree with your views.I think the real essence of being an Indian is to read its philosophy and then go towards religion.Then the practice of religion is no longer a ritual but a process of involution.
  
  
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.128.128) on: Fri Aug 31 16:17:36 EDT 2001
  
  Read the postings. Very clear that few things have been misinterpreted. My analysis was not meant to shock anybody!!!
  
  Udhaya,
  It is very clear from ur comments that u've lost control over urself. No offense meant. Will try to reply to you today.
  
  Bharath,
  Thanks for trying to help Udhaya understand me better.
  
  My comments were with regards to our I/T FM not with regard to any religion (Sandhya Vandhanam, the real culprit now:-)). As posted earlier, I used the words “our culture” in a more general sense to stress more on Indianness.
  
  I see that it is getting into a religion-belief debate. This thread is not intended for that. My feelings (I feel) were on culure vis-à-vis our FM. Let us not leave out FM. Will be back.
  
  
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Fri Aug 31 16:28:07 EDT 2001
  
  KS,
  Digression:
  "I used the words “our culture” in a more general sense to stress more on Indianness."
  
  I think that's the problem here.One can never define culture to anyone else.Each one should understand according to his/her own beliefs which belive me need not be the same to everyone.
  I believe rituals may not be necessary at all to understand religion.But surely it has the power of creating illusion in anyone that we are doing something God wanted us to do.
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Fri Aug 31 16:42:58 EDT 2001
  
  //"why violin was adapated by south indian musicians,
  why not guitar or piano or a mandolin (the real one!,)... "//
  
  i 'll repost srikanths question since it went back to the old responses.
  
  does the answer to ur question itself some answer to this thread?
  
  good question though!
  
  assuming violin is a non-indian foreign instrument then maybe violin should have come to india many centuries b4 the others! and so is more deeply ingrained
  
  in the last 2 centuries the most popular musicians used violin as the instrument they used to parade their skills! and hence it was more poplular!
  
  does piano have an indian equivalant ?
  
  I dunno if all the 4 instruments were totally foreign and only violin caught up! then the explanataion deviates something akin to why guitar is more popular than "jaltarang"("the instrument where an artist hits jugs filled with water to produce music" :) )
  
  there was a program in DD where "meesai" murugesan.(also acts) played so many instruments that were unknown to the outside world. he was also able to produce music through "saw", knifes, hammer etc...were those native instruments!
  
  digression:
  
  "macha avatharam" use panni evalavu pera madakkalam theriyuma! naan evalavu pannirukken. useful tool. (but there is some pooja ppl go bak and perform which dispenses all the sins incurred due to crossing the sea! )
  
  KSS,
  
  yes ha ha.. now sandhyavanthanam is a culprit. the reason why i picked that up was because i generally accept if i am lacking in something . i have seen so many people trashing the process because they dont do it daily . they throw half-baked question about how irrelevant it is and that it is a force of religion on them. I wud simply say " i dont have time" and that wud be more reasonable!
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Fri Aug 31 16:44:56 EDT 2001
  
  //"assuming violin is a non-indian foreign instrument then maybe violin should have come to india many centuries b4 the others! and so is more deeply ingrained
  
  in the last 2 centuries the most popular musicians used violin as the instrument they used to parade their skills! and hence it was more poplular! "//
  
  just guessing not a statement b.t.w
  
  
  

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