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Western & Indian

Topic started by Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on Thu Aug 23 17:21:47 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have seen the following comments a lot of times in this DF.

"the instruments used are western" .... "This song is like "western music" " etc..

I want to know, what is the definition of tamil sounding music and what are tamil instruments? I asked this question to a well know lyricist and he asked me to look up "silapathigaram" for the answer. I dont think he was trying to answer my question.

Among the instruments that have been used in the last 4 decades by tfm MD's I think a majority of instruments were western.

So what is the subtelity that classifies music as "western" and "Indian"? Is it the instruments being used or the carnautic/tamil folk touch the song gets?

for e.g I wud say guitar, violin, flute, drums etc as western instruments and tabala as Indian (although i dunno if its tamilian) ------ to shatter some myths about the western/indian definitions.

so as an educative purpose it would be nice if people gave an account of how much tamilian has tfm been for the past 3-4 decades. and shed some light on what attribute classifies a musical score as tamilian/western.

I am more interested in tamilain than Indian.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: mahabs (@ 203.197.138.163) on: Fri Aug 31 11:46:16 EDT 2001
  
  mr. ks!
  
  your views are clear and you wrote them cogently. i accept that one should not lose one's cultural ethics and develop things that are destroying it.
  
  but, imho, a culture is a continuously evolving thing. what you had 2000 years ago, had changed 1000 years ago and now we are having a new culture.
  
  which one you would like to preserve? varnasiramam and manu srimithi? how many tamilians know sandhya vandhanam? first of all, is it necessary?
  
  what culture a non-hindu should have?
  
  many persons who are not religeous are sincere and honest.
  
  how much of our culture has been influenced by other cultures?
  
  i feel, all cultures are having both negative and positive apects. when one culture interacts with another, it is the duty of the 'learned' to identify the negative aspects and tell others.
  
  but, can such views be remain unbiased and prejudiced?
  
  i am eager to know your opinions.
  
  anbudn
  
  mahabs
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Fri Aug 31 12:36:13 EDT 2001
  
  //"how many tamilians know sandhya vandhanam? first of all, is it necessary? "//
  
  well if its part of one duty to go to church every sunday then they should do it.
  
  I studied in a muslim minority college and i was amazed by the way they sincerely did prayers regularly.
  
  It has become a fashion nowadays to comment that I dont like to pray or go to temples etc.
  
  u know...like.. my granny.. dude.. is so orthodox.. is so stupid..u know... like...goddawful...dude
  
  these have become todays mantras!
  
  u ask if its neccessary? when searching for answer to the question! ask urself honestly whether u r looking for reasons to do it. or are u finding out the irrelevance and illofic in it to "todays concept" and find reasons to not do it?
  
  
  there are many reason why 1 should do sandhyavanthanam. but since thats sadly out of style no one wants to know about it!
  
  think of these thoughts as trailing on a third persons mind .... " my manager picks his nose before he eats and when he shakes my hand i have to reciprocate. But when my grandma scrubs the part of the floor she eats with cow dung I make fun of her!. I dont even walk much on that part of the floor and she rarely east when I am home! but just because i have the liberty I use it only to critisize but not understand "
  
  well! just because many people who r religious are dishonest !it does justify one from being religious minded.
  
  ofcourse I am talking with respect to a non atheist audience.
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Fri Aug 31 12:41:05 EDT 2001
  
  //"it does justify one from being religious minded. "//
  
  should have read as "does it????"
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.128.128) on: Fri Aug 31 13:21:18 EDT 2001
  
  Kupps,
  
  Romba romba nandri. Thanks a lot for your story and encouraging response!!!
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.128.128) on: Fri Aug 31 13:22:39 EDT 2001
  
  Normal Man,
  
  Thanks.
  
  Bharath,
  
  /*
  mark of a good writer.
  */
  chinnappo lerndae yenaku ezhudhara pazhakam assalu kidayaadhunnu aathula ore complaint…till date:)
  
  /*
  ithukku mela vera enna venum! wonderful! a treat to read. I read every word of it.
  I infact took a print out and showed it to many of my friends!
  */
  I’m surprised you did it!!! Glad that you felt it was worth showing to others.
  
  Mahabs,
  
  Culture change you are taking of is nothing but a “change”. We, as Indians, have a way of life, which is what I referred to as “culture” in general. If this change is for worse, we should not encourage it. I took the liberty of using the word “culture” in a more general sense and not specific to any religion.
  
  /*
  how many tamilians know sandhya vandhanam? first of all, is it necessary?
  what culture a non-hindu should have?
  */
  It was just an illustration. I was not stressing on Sandhya Vandhanam though it would not have been wrong. My stress was more on the sentence that followed it – about internal peace and purity of mind. Anything that provides them is of importance to anybody and one needs to choose amongst them.
  
  /*
  all cultures are having both negative and positive apects
  */
  I feel ours has more positives than negatives. You need to identify yourselves with one and believe in it.
  
  /*
  can such views be remain unbiased and prejudiced?
  */
  that is where self-control helps.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Fri Aug 31 14:13:56 EDT 2001
  
  the instruments used are western.....
  there is no proof that flute is western,
  even lord krishna had it. :)
  
  AKC used to play clairnet, sax came in just now!... (still till date other than prasana and sukumar prasad there are no big time guitar carantic vidwans around ?)
  
  why violin was adapated by south indian musicians,
  why not guitar or piano or a mandolin (the real one!,)...
  
  
• From: polappu (@ 216.253.102.3) on: Fri Aug 31 14:29:51 EDT 2001
  
  KS,
  Good postings, thanks for taking the time and effort.
  
  When it comes to TFM, the first step towards appreciating our culture and language would be to persuade the singers to render thamizh the way it should be.
  we have to keep in mind that culture keeps evolving. The cultural outlook will change and we have to make sure that the changes happen in the right direction (like abolishing Sati) so that we don't lose our cultural identity.
  
  polappu
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 63.89.188.205) on: Fri Aug 31 14:41:24 EDT 2001
  
  KS,
  With a dropped-jaw I read much of what you wrote. I sincerely hope for your enlightenment. I’m responding to key points you have made.
  
  Also, realize that enjoying more of western music, going to parties and gyrating to the beats, basically, living the “fast life” will in no way help safeguard our cultural interests.
  I vehemently disagree. I go to parties, I love dancing in the dark to my favorite R&B music, and yes I drink at these clubs too, oooh sinful me, right?
  
  I read poetry by Bharathidasan, Bharathy, and other modern poets. I buy novels and short stories by the best Thamizh writers. I buy CDs of Carnatic musicians (so I’m economically supporting my culture get it?). And after I consume our home-grown culture through literature, poetry and music, I review it and talk about it to people so they’ll go and buy the ones I recommend and indulge our culture some more.
  
  Just the other day in another thread I was talking about how ARR ranks among the best musicians in the world and that we have no need to feel that he’s inferior to other world musicians. See I wouldn’t know this if I were stuck in the mud and severed my ties with the outside world and its offerings would I? I have come to respect our cultural heritage first hand by trying what other cultures offer me and by comparing it with my culture. Guess what, we stand tall in competition but this in no way means that other cultures are crap. I only hope you get the broad mind to open up to other things so you can see for yourself.
  
  
  Movies have the largest reach in India. So, whatever is promoted in movies in majority, will reach a wide audience and have a tremendous impact on their minds and change their tastes, and possibly, their way of life.
  
  What about literature? What about philosophy? What about following your elders? Why shouldn’t people seek out what’s good for them? Why should they stick to movies for expanding their minds? Why don’t they go to schools and libraries?
  
  Regarding what you say about Mani Iyer. This is a melancholy that clouds many stalwarts in their twilight years. They feel that everything is declining. They forget to see the progress made in fusion, in our music reaching the global market. Carnatic music and its practitioners are only increasing by numbers not decreasing. I see evidence of it in Indian TV of all places. That we see little evidence of it in measly soundtracks is no indication of a deteriorating culture. The same things were said when IR came into the scene. People shut up after he gave hundreds of semi-classical, raagam-based songs. Now they’re saying that about ARR and the new breed. They only focus on the rhythm-oriented hits by ARR and others. I guess they forget the great raagam-based songs that ARR , Vidhyasagar and even Deva have given to enrich TFM. Truth, like beauty, is also in the eye of the beholder. If people only look west they will only see the sun set. Maybe they should look to the east and see that the sun also rises.
  
  Believe me, only religiously inclined people are more disciplined. It takes lots of hard work and perseverance to be disciplined.
  
  I’m not religious, I don’t know what sandhya vandhanam is nor do I care. So, in your opinion, I’m undisciplined, irreverent to my culture and am endangering it, huh? Don’t speak too loud, man, I fear you might start your own fundamentalist cult. This is unbelievable to read. Do you take into account the honest work I do, the taxes I pay as a law-abiding citizen or the thousands of dollars I spend consuming products made in India?
  
  Therefore, the only help TFM can do is to start sounding more Indian.
  
  Hey, then IR should stop using violins, horns, keyboards and mixers as these are western inventions right? Why stop there, we should all give up cars, traveling in planes, watches, modern toilets… anything we didn’t invent in our culture right?
  
  This is scary thinking, man. Please rethink your stance.
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Fri Aug 31 15:09:22 EDT 2001
  
  Udhaya,
  
  I think u have mixed it up! KS's commentary was more on abdicating our cullture slowly with time because of the influence of other sources that after some decades the fundametal defn. of culture itself will be viewed differently!
  
  

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