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Shyam Benegal has understood Tamil Cinema

Topic started by OISG (@ 193.188.97.152) on Mon Apr 15 02:26:51 EDT 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Shyam Benegal: You were accomplished in cinematic grammar from the start. How did you get the Tamil audiences (habituated to theatricality, histrionics and rhetoric) to transcend conventional ways of looking at cinema?

THE HINDU - Chat with Mani Ratnam

Following is the original, for which Mr.Benegal has taken pains to translate it into English!Thanks Benegal Saab!


From: OISG (@ 193.188.97.152) on: Mon Apr 8 11:09:19 EDT 2002


Bollwood was magnanimous enough to give Sivaji Ganesan the Dadasaheb Phalke award ahead of Mamta Kularni and Deepak Tijouri.

You southies always complain.

Let me list out what we Bollwood have :

We have 700+ territories with 80% of them in Bihar/MP/UP.Bahut pade log hai uthar .. 4th class!

We have Anu malik,NS,SD,JL .Thumara Rehman competer megeek martha hai!Ithar Sab original hai!

We have sophisticated Star material in Rahul Roy,Saif Ali khan ,Esha Deol ,Bobby deol to name a few. Pehle hamare paas Ranjit,Jeetendar,Dharmindar ,Rajendra Kumar ,Jagdeep tha!Madrasi log Rajinikant ke peche pade hei! Vo kali beedi martha hai!

We have talented directors like Mahesh Bhatt,raj Kanwar who make original movies.Dekh! Criminal film was Bhatt Saab s autobiography!

We have the best dancer in Sanjay Dutt!Thumara Prabhu Deva acha natchtha hai lekin sanju baba ka steps isse badiya hai.Woh kamal ka aadmi hai,Langda ka Role be kiya isne!

Sadhanaji ka hair ishtyle Stefi Graf ne copy kiya!

Asha Parekhji bahuti decent our Kamyabi thi.So we made her the censor board chairperson.Tomorrow we are going to elect Pooja Bhatt or Mamata Kularni for the post but you will still complain.

Hamara Salman ka muscles... Awaz nahe mangtha!Iska Nasional Geogrphy channel may be chance mila !

Hamara Amir Dhai lakh dollar Karcha kiya.Kai ke liye!Bharat ko ek AShkar milne keliye.Tumara Maniratnam kiniratnam aisa karega kya!Ashkar kali gora log jeethraha hai!

Hamre paas Kumar Sanu hai!Vo Mu se nahi Nak se Gaath hai!Thumara SPB kya ..hamesha mu se gatha hai!Sanu da ka kaam kitna mushkil malum hai kya?

Amitab ..kya aadmi hai..kitna hoshyari our buddhiman he!Ishtar TV dekh!Usko sabi jawab malum hai Phir be Roz Lakhon rupiya karcha kartha hai!Kabhi kabhi Karodo rupiya be!Isilye isko "Pershonalty of the year" mila.Agale saal hum Abishek ko denewale hai.Baath ho gaya!

Sabse uppar Hamare paas Johnny lever hai!we have instituted Dada Saheb Kondke award and we are giving johnny the award this year.Tum log be koshish karlo yaar!Kondke saaab ka "Diya Tere haath me" "Kol de teri Zuban" film ko Angrez log ne Ashkar nai diya!Kya film hai!

Clerk naam pe ek philm hamare Manoj Kumar saab ne kiya.Isse bada comedy film kaun banayega?

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: prabhudas (@ 129.49.160.145) on: Mon Apr 15 20:24:23 EDT 2002
  
  Just out of curiosity,
  can somebody list year 2001 Tamil megahits/blockbusters and probably we can compare really if the Tamil hits ( so called ) were really worth the attention they recieved.
  I am not suporting ourightly Hindi movies, but how many of the Vijay Kanth's movies had a decent story , I am sure 90% of his movies are similar to the kind like Gaddar and Indian ( Hindi remake of a tamil movie), What about Rajinkanth's movies, I don't know if had a good one worth appreciating for a long time although every movie of him are mega hits.
  No body questions Mahendran's abilities, but look what Tamil Makkal did to him?, and atleast MR is clever enough with his marketing knowledge, to give probably some movies with a different dimension ( again not all the movies)than the same old formula movies
  
  Prabhudas
  
  
• From: e.hari (@ 138.89.106.80) on: Mon Apr 15 21:17:08 EDT 2002
  
  OISG,
  You missed the question by Buddhadeb Dasgupta, which was worse than what Shyam Benegal asked?.
  
  This is the question asked by Buddhadeb Dasgupta.
  Indian cinema has given us great masters. Why did Tamil cinema have to wait so long to get a Mani Ratnam for national recognition? Also, isn't it time to do something more lasting, bring more sensitivity to your images?
  
  MR answers were very good, BTW
  
  
  
  Regards
  e.hari
  
  
  
  I agree Shyam Benegal question was not
  
  
• From: Juan Pablo Montoya (@ 194.85.204.14) on: Tue Apr 16 00:03:51 EDT 2002
  
  To tell u the truth, if i were mani ratnam, I wud feel insulted if i were to be recognized by the same crowd who thinks Kabhi Khushi, Mohabbatein and of course Kuch Kuch Hota Hai were great films and a creature like Karan Johar is an ace-director. He kept endlessly bragging on TV about his antics in the making of Kabhi Khushi.. U shud have seen sony europe.. you wud want to kill this guy just for the amount of primetime he recieved and the self-patting he did..And of course, from the Big(or rather bankrupt)B to Hrithik going gaga over this imbecile(my apologies but cant think of a better fitting desc.). I know.. I know my post is irrelevant to the thread.. I just hate this guy and his stupid movies..
  
  
• From: vengayam (@ 203.200.84.66) on: Tue Apr 16 00:05:49 EDT 2002
  
  OISG,
  Coming from you this surprises me. what is your peeve? Shyam Benegal was talking about audience " habituated to theatricality, histrionics and rhetoric" which is quite true. That doesn't mean he says Hindi cinema is good. ( I can't resist it it is like if someone says ARR is good in this forum it is assumed by IR fans that he is anti IR. The same bias u have applied here) Of couse Tamil cinema was theaterical. pazhaya padangallil Cameravai rivetaddicchu veiitu poy viduvaargal only close ups to show sivaji's histrionics. They used to capture plays thro camera. Later day CVS, JM, BR, BM & Mani Rathnam played a great role in taking the Tamil movie forward as a visual medium & being subtle. Shyam Benegal is a giant do not belittle him please. If it is of some solace he too is a southie from hyderabad. He is related ( i think nephew/or second cousin) to Guru Dutt - the original Visual master -who originally hails from Padukone in Karnataka ( yes the same place as Prakash Padukone the ex Badminton Champ. They are great people let them leave it at that.
  Another matter of consolation Guru Dutt's cameraman was also a Tamilian V K Murthi. probably a digression but thought you might be interested.
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Tue Apr 16 00:36:53 EDT 2002
  
  OISG,
  
  "hits of ramanarayan", how should we classify them? aren't they equivalents of "Ganga Pavithr hai" and "Ganga Matha ki Jai"?
  
  I guess shyam benegal's remark was about the audience in general, in Mani's case he termed it as thamizh audience coz mani has done mostly thamizh films. Shyam, i guess, is a kind of art film director(jholna pai aezhuththaaLargaL kind of person who blame all other writers and more importantly the readers as fools who cannot see the greatness of the kind of "their" writings). He could have seen Mani's a selected few films like Dilse, Iruvar, Bombay and have thought mani to be a half great(read as art) director and could have hence passed such a typical comment on audience, which in Mani's case is thamizh audience. Ofcourse his ignorance of thamizh cine field is shown in the statement -- How did you get the Tamil audiences (habituated to theatricality, histrionics and rhetoric) to transcend conventional ways of looking at cinema?
  as though Mani is the first director in thamizh cinema who transcended audience from conventional ways. I would say that shyam picked a wrong person to say this (Mani himself admitted it).
  
  Hence I guess shyam's remark is not that of typical northie on southie (or) southie on northie type of comment but a great(art) director on audience comment.
  
  
• From: OISG (@ 193.188.97.152) on: Tue Apr 16 01:39:45 EDT 2002
  
  The comments of Benegal and Dasgupta certainly show off their ignorance about Tamil cinema and betray the ethnic north-south divide.
  
  Benegal s southern origin is a news to me and i could think of Dilip Kumar s dialogue to the Jailer in Kranti.(This statement is meant for the bollywooddies.)
  
  I am again repeating that Benegal may and free to have his opinions about Tamil cinema But Audience .. thats where the problem erupts.Well if MR had not taken this seriously thats something to do his aspirations.
  But i too feel MR had handled the stupid questions from Benegal,Buddhu Deb and drama director K balachandar.(No spelling mistakes!)
  
  Benegal would have certainly seen Sila nerangalil ..,Dhagam (Muthuraman Nadhita Bose) etc ..which are real milestones in Parallel cinema.So even a comment about Tamil cinema as a whole would be misplaced.
  
  If he has so much to say about Tamil audience why choose a Rehman who got into the limelight purely because of a mob habituated to theatrical,rhetoric,histronic Tamil cinema.
  
  How would you have reacted to the following question to MR?
  
  The northern audience are used to films like Sadak,Ram teri Ganga maili and Gaddar .How did you manage to reach them too with a subtle film like Roja?
  
  
  
  
  
• From: vengayam (@ 203.200.84.66) on: Tue Apr 16 01:52:55 EDT 2002
  
  OISg, Again you are getting the emotions get the better of you. The Hindu had formatted the MR interview wherin different personalities asked a question each to MR. Shyam Benegal asked the question? You would agree that Tamil films of cinematic quality are rare. SB would not have meant his question to be taken out of context & given it a racil slant as it were. Benegal makes meaningful cinema & I believe is abreast about good cinema movement in India - Tamil included.
  
  
• From: OISG (@ 193.188.97.152) on: Tue Apr 16 02:46:28 EDT 2002
  
  Even if TF had managed Oscars they would continue to be the butt of ethnic jokes..Madarasi et all..
  
  Take it from me.25 years from now you would still see the comedian in Hindi film wearing a veshti and would say "Aiyayo ji".Northerners have profound ignorance about us and they love to exhibit it thru their movies and statements.
  
  
  II .If Spielberg makes a comment about Tamil audience you try to look into the problem for
  
  1.Spielberg had made movies FOR the Audience,
  
  2.he has made genuine attempts to know their pulse
  and infact succeeded with Clean movies..no frills.
  
  3.He does not make those "festival"(Cannes ..) movies where the entire audience is on designer wares.
  
  4.His movies are enjoyed by all age groups irrespective of nationalities and idealogies.
  
  5.He has not specifically made a movie for the Tamil audience but still he has reached us despite the language barrier.
  
  Here no one would see the colour,race..etc.the statment would get the due attention because of the credibility of the source.
  
  But does SB fit into this category? NO.He makes meaningful cinema for whom ? ..for the Jury?Without a single honest attempt to reach them yet passing a mindless comment shows Benegal ,the individual, in poor light and in poorer taste.
  
  If cinematic quality is rare in TF ,tell me where they are good in India?
  
  Manasu Ketkavillai!
  
  
• From: History of the Great Modern Indian Cinema (@ 166.90.64.24) on: Tue Apr 16 02:46:47 EDT 2002
  
  I personally feel that at the more evolved level of cinematic entertainment or communication, theater, rhetoric and histrionic talents are like the central nervous system. They make cinema full bodied and not to forget songs and dances. Properly conceived songs and dances are ways to add tones and emotions to give a bouyancy and vivaciousness to make the cinema a life like feel. This is where the full breadth of creativity runs free of every constraints. I am not belittling hollywood where restraint of the actors and ideas are the norm so as to enable the director to be in charge and tell a story in as simple a course as possible. Hollywood is only 100 years old, Indian theater has been alive for centuries and it did not take roots in shakespeare! Over centuries of wizening up, Indian cinema has learnt to sustain itself only thru the means of theater, histrionicity, rhetoric and songs and dances, which were really brought to great heights in Tamil cinema. The like of Shyam Benegal and other critics in India and abroad (at the oscars or cannes or wherever) will have to first trace their consciousness back a couple of thousand years for them to understand where we are today. Everything has a history and some history repeats to a great effect, some don't have a history, and some histories are just buried. Modern cinema in India has a great history and imho I definitely find the cinema brought up by the legends of Sivaji, MGR, Ilayaraaja, and many many other greats more enjoyable and profound than what I experience in Hollywood and today's Bollywood.
  
  

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