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ARR's song making style

Topic started by kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on Tue Oct 3 18:56:17 EDT 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I'd appreciate if knowledgeable people can contribute to this thread, hopefully explaining musical techniques in a form that everybody can understand

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed Oct 4 14:00:13 EDT 2000
  
  Well..when I meant 'style' I actually meant the structure of the song more than how it is done. Of late, I have been trying to classify IR songs and found some interesting patterns. Then I started wondering how ARR is different. It looks like ARR is more into the rhythmic structure than melodic flow. Rhythm can be provided by sequence of notes that are repeated in succession (or with little modification..I am not that music savvy). eg. kAtrE en vAsal vanthAi, eeramAna rOjAvE, ennaippaARthu mUdAthey. The same beat continues throughout with very little interruption (if any)or played by different instruments. It is these kinds of songs which ARR prefers more compared to kannAlane..or atleast these songs contribute to the perceived high hit rate of ARRs songs.
  Any more along these lines or different views ?
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 207.43.195.202) on: Wed Oct 4 14:14:07 EDT 2000
  
  Srikanth: Good exposition! This is in contrast to IR's style where most of the composing is conceived and structured in the mind of the composer itself. Of course, IR knows about the nuances of most instruments he uses - so one would rarely find an inappropriate selection or usage of the instruments. One of the disadvantages in letting the composition take shape over a period of time (as opposed to 1 or 2 sittings) is many of the circumstances surrounding the song would have changed and may not be consistent through out the song. This absence of consistency could be
  1) technical
  2) musical or
  3) emotional (bhaavam)
  
  Let us see the examples for each one of the above.
  
  Technical - ARR has multiple versions of the same song rendered by the singer and he cuts and pastes Line 1 from version 5, line 2 from version 3, line 3 from version 9....you get the picture. From personal experience as a singer, as much as I like to think I am, I am not a robot who can go instantly into an exact same mood, technique, volume, and other parameters across various 'versions'. This kind of cut and paste becomes obvious in songs like 'veNNilavEy veNNilavEy', en mEl vizhundha mazhaiththuLiyE etc.
  
  Musical - Let us take two light classical compositions, one by IR and one by ARR. maanjOlai kiLi thaanO (MKT) and minsaarap poovEy (MP). If you listen to the interlude music for MKT you would notice that the composer changes the nadai for the song (in both first and second BGM) but each phrase is well thought out planned piece. The flute, violins etc cannot come in one measure earlier or later. By contrast, let us take MP. In the first BGM there is a guitar lead. Then after 8 beats Hariharan comes in with an aalaap. There is nothing which schematically prevents him from coming 8 beats earlier or later. Similarly, after his aalaap, there are some guitar chord strummings. Again HH follows with saki......yE...after 2 strums. Could have been 4, 6 or zero - there would have been no difference. This occurred because HH, the guitarist and the Mridangam player did not record at the same time - and more important ARR did not conceive this union at the same time. He started adding this one by one at different points of time. This is more obvious at the end of MP. The Mridangam and KonnakkOl are exactly 1 aavarththanam each and so is Nityasree's akaaram brigaas - except the nadais are totally dissimilar. Nityasree is a very capable artist and for her to synchronize the brigaas with the style of the konnakkOl - she can easily do it even with her left hand tied behind her back. Except there is a problem! Nityasree's recording was done first and the Mridangam/KonnakkOl was added later. Hence the absence of coordination. Despite all this, MP remains one of my all-time favorite songs.
  
  Emotional- Well! who should I blame ARR or the singer(s) in question?
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Wed Oct 4 14:22:54 EDT 2000
  
  Rajag: Correction: Minsara Poove is sung by srinivas
  
  
  
• From: isai-rasigan (@ 208.142.210.30) on: Wed Oct 4 14:27:10 EDT 2000
  
  Fan, Hari, SRK, Kiru and others
  
  This discussion is by far the most productive and constructive in the past 2 years. Please continue that and give more info to laymen like me. Thanks to all of you for giving a life to the DF of newtfmpage.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 207.43.195.202) on: Wed Oct 4 14:28:45 EDT 2000
  
  Fan: The aalaap has been sung by HH - It says on the album plus I trust my ears! The song has been sung by Srinivas. In fact Srivas Oda mudhal pallavikkum first charaNam mudinja udanEy varra pallvikkum emotional dissimilarity is very very obvious.
  
  
• From: Anand (@ 192.11.221.101) on: Wed Oct 4 14:35:34 EDT 2000
  
  Fan,
  I totally disagree that writing notations would make one monotonuos or is the cause for IR's muscial drain. Without getting into another drumbeat, I find ARR's compositions lacking a natural flow. You explained how a dolak sounds refreshing in ARR's world, but why is'nt that most of his compositions(?) are of the fast food variety. None of them has stood time.
  
  Am not a composer, but one can discern the spontaneity in a creator. Discipline is very important in any facet of life and especially in art its very much a prerequisite. To me musical composition is like composing a letter or writing a poem. Its not a collective effort. Its one man's creative genie popping out. Agreed its tough to express gamakams in Western notations(there is something called a Grace note which come close to our gamakams) but apart from that, its a great structured form of muscial expression.
  Infact the reason for IR's works standing test of time is his ablility to translate thoughts into western notations.
  
  
• From: Observer (@ 144.92.44.76) on: Wed Oct 4 14:39:10 EDT 2000
  
  Analyzing ARR's music, I find a lot of difference in his score for Sangamam. For some reason, Sangamam songs seem to be much more spontaneous than usual.
  
  I wonder if he did this movie in a hurry.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 207.43.195.202) on: Wed Oct 4 14:40:17 EDT 2000
  
  Fan: It is not as if IR writes the notations and vanishes from the studio. For gamakams, brigas etc he can give verbal instructions. Do you think he was drawing clefs for Gangai karai mannanadi in thOdi or mari mari ninnE in saramathi?
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed Oct 4 14:46:32 EDT 2000
  
  WOW ..rajaG..
  1) Re: dholak sounds. Fan, I thought it was a matter of recording (balance) and limited orchestration. I find poRRi pAdadi pennE highlighting ghatam and morsing similarly(that the string section joins and leaves gracefully in this is a different issue). But you seem to attribute more musical techniques to it (notes not overlapping). Can you elaborate more ?
  2) Re: Indian music and ARR's style. I dont think the popular perception of ARR is that he has done very 'Indian' music. On the contrary, he is synonymous with modern music. So his working style is just his style. Or do you think it is deliberate attempt to experiment with brighas, gamakams ?
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 207.43.195.202) on: Wed Oct 4 14:57:05 EDT 2000
  
  kiru: Is your response addressed to me beyond "WOW rajaG"?:-)) Anyway, Thanks!
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed Oct 4 15:05:41 EDT 2000
  
  rajaG, no, those were points mentioned by fan.
  only the wow was to you but it was a big WOW :-)
  It is becoming like a chat I have decided to have my lunch now to save some time for work too :-)
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Wed Oct 4 16:33:54 EDT 2000
  
  Msv had his instant composing style, Ir had his way of writing scores, like wise Arr has a different way of music production,
  The reason ir is called great in back ground music is because of his arrangements, he used lot of westerclassical ideas for our indian form of music. More than writing, it seems raja hears all the parts in his brain before they are played, Msv told this in an interview,
  
  Still tune wise msv scores the best,
  arr score in the presentation that anyone else.
  I am not debating which style is correct or pefect., Since each one had a new style, I would attiribute this as one the main factor of their success.
  
  IMHO Writing score does not work with indian music. As a musician I expect surprises in the tine, placement of chords etc, I dont want to predict if a cmaj is played, G7th will follow on the bar.
  
  RajaG : there is something called a Grace note which come close to our gamakams -- thanks for this...:)
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Wed Oct 4 16:42:54 EDT 2000
  
  isai-rasigan (@ 208.142.210.30) on: Wed Oct 4 14:27:10 EDT 2000
  
  Hope you are not from the musiccurry.com ...
  
  they have already flicked points from here and published in thier site,
  :))
  
  
  I wish newtfmpage admin to puts some copy right notice, many tamil movie web pages are flicking verbatim info left and right from our discussions.,
  
  
  btw:Where is vijay,sl, Udahaya? :)
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.112) on: Wed Oct 4 17:10:22 EDT 2000
  
  I like the discussion. The 'observations' about ARR's working style and IR's style were good.
  The 'opinions' are not!
  
  Let us make sure we dont give into the
  urge of writing judgemental essays on "IR's music is good because it is one-shot delivery"
  or that "it went bad because he used an
  algorithmic writing style" and
  ARR's music sounds good because of his layering
  improvisational style or bad because it is a deliberative style. These are some conclusions
  and may block the discussion.
  
  Talking about the style should be more from a
  learning perspective and not from a judgemental
  perspective. If I am discussing music, I dont
  care how it was put together, but only whether it has good musical ideas and excites me.
  
  After all, IR was using his style for 15 successful years and it worked. Also, each one's
  style changes often.
  
  Side piece: Sangamam's "Varaaha nadikkarai"
  seems to be a very spontaneous composition,
  (having the least percussive variations!) and a
  unified tune. It sounds so fresh, with a
  nice humorous touch with TR mahalingam style
  lyrics (kanaa vai odi maranjae, panja varna
  kili)
  
  And fan, I am beginning to feel sometimes
  that ARR is
  getting formulaic with his recording effects.
  What once or twice seems innovative, if overused,
  becomes gimmicky! Man, why should you always
  run after new sounds? And digital transformations?
  You can use old voices to say new things!
  
  RJAY
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.201) on: Wed Oct 4 17:12:57 EDT 2000
  
  Fan: Grace notes.....comment by Anand NOT me! udanEy 100 thOppukkaraNam pOdavum:-)
  
  

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