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Did MSV have ANY musical defects?

Topic started by SR Kaushik (@ nova1.cs.wisc.edu) on Wed Sep 30 15:21:55 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Let me make one thing clear: I am not against MSV, but am merely curious about this topic.

I have made an interesting observation. We have so many criticisms of IR and ARR, but I've not seen any criticism of MSV. I haven't listened to many MSV songs, but I wasn't very impressed by whatever I have heard on TV. Whatever it is, I cannot imagine that he did not have any musical defects. Could anyone point them out? I am very interested. It might test the "objectivity" of certain "objective" people regarding the IR-ARR "war"(I'm not hinting at anyone, please do not misunderstand this), but nevertheless, I want to pursue this.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Sathish A Great fan of MSV (@ 68.18.65.53) on: Fri Sep 20 22:54:07 EDT 2002
  
  i think sasi and awe both have mistaken me. I never compared Pre92IR with MSV or ARR. Time and again saying all 3 are gems of different generations.
  
  If u notice what I said before, i added IR to every other contributors to the success of the film u mentioned. A film's success depends on various reasons. I said IR is not the only reason for every successful film. this means IR might have to take the credit of failure films. So in a way it is a conflict - right? Dont generalize bcos of IR music alone a film ran 1year or 2years.
  
  MSV asked Genova producer and so also IR asked P.A.- whats the difference? In those days one needs to sing for acting in film. So did MSV. I agree with u that he first came for acting - look at the age he tried that (bala murugan vesham). he was not clear bcos of his age and somebody told MSV that since u r singing and scoring well u can be a Music pro and hence MSV took music as a profession and he was helped by KV Mama.
  Dont go to Nadhi moolam - in that way IR never even knew he would play harmonium (his brother never allowed him to touch that!) and later become a big musician. They both had in-born skills and later came out with flying colors.
  
  AWE, please dont for heaven sake - not even in ur dreams - degrade MSV by slogging some unwanted statements. He is such a genius - listen to some of the "Pa" series songs from Beemsingh films and "MGR" "Shivaji" "Gemini" songs +
  "PBS" "Susila" "SPB" and some of TMS songs scored by MSV. I cant list all the films it will take more than a yugam to do.
  
  Again comming to ARR - sasi - how did u say ARR is a pop musician?
  
  please refer my previous post about ARR and then say whether he is Pop musician or a fusion (everything right from folk to western). I agree with u IR is a classical composer. One thing i cant agree is IR is not able to attract the new ARR generation from his composition. simple!
  
  AWE, since ARR is an international figure we cant expect him to score every tamil film. instead we should see how many international films he is scoring. That way he is still on top. even this year he got national award. i think since 1992 he is the most # of national award winner - i think noone has ever won like this, if so, please let me know.
  
  U r asking me a question why arr scored only 40 films in 10 years? i will ask u the same question as i did before why IR is taking more than 12 years to complete 1000 films after completing 750 films in just 15 years. Answer is former is very slow and he knew his strength and weekness. The later is re-tiring. BTW, songs post-92 songs u mentioned all are okay but they are not reached the audience like pre-92 films songs.
  
  
• From: Sathish A Great fan of MSV (@ 68.18.65.53) on: Fri Sep 20 23:12:54 EDT 2002
  
  Conclusion of this :
  
  MSV is the best MD with no defects.
  IR is the best MD with full of egos (his film posters will tell and some of the lyrics of the songs will tell!).
  ARR is the humblest human and the super MD of the new and future generation.
  
  Fact bitters. But this is the truth and binding.
  
  
• From: Kamal (@ 206.15.1.136) on: Fri Sep 20 23:40:05 EDT 2002
  
  Hi Satish,
  
  MSV was monontonous just like ARR is now. Recyclers. "International films".. what is that film can you tell me? He scored just 2 movies man... this year both govindha.. Illayaraja won national award in 84,85 and 87. In four years three times.. So if you don't know please be quite. ARR is king of copy masters. Atlesat 50 songs sudapatta songs from foriegn songs.. ok regarding MSV.. i cut and paste the first three posts of this thread.. they were posted in 1998.
  So enjoy reading it
  
  From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Wed Sep 30 15:48:19 EDT 1998
  
  
  MSV produced many uninspired works towards the tail end of his reign and pretty much fell into a complacent rut (approximately from 1977 to 1982). A few saving graces were the soundtracks for movies made by K.Balachandhar, Muktha. Also a few Sivaji movies.
  
  Background music was never his strong suit. I have come out of the theater with a throbbing headache many a times because of MSV's shrieking violins and drums for stunts and tragic sequences.
  
  Recording quality was very mediocre even for many of his great compositions. That he didn't encourage many new singers or songwriters could also be charge on him.
  
  I'm not quite qualified to speak of ragams and chord progression, I'll leave that to the pundits.
  
  Objectively yours,
  Udhaya
  
  
  
  From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Wed Sep 30 16:21:34 EDT 1998
  
  
  I do'nt think MSV had any musical defects in his compositions but there has been distinct musical deficiencies.I find harmony patterns almost non-existent.He solely concetrated on melody and did bring out some outstanding melodies but on the flip side the melodies could have been enriched by a cohesive harmonic backbone.One can hear this difference after listening to IR songs.
  I would say he never evinced interest in western classical concepts and just stuck to his composing patterns and ofcourse his BGM is a lot to be desired.
  
  
  
  From: Mukund (@ sdwwwgw01.sd.nmp.nokia.com) on: Wed Sep 30 16:39:58 EDT 1998
  
  
  Hi Kaushik,
  
  Do you have a hotline to my thinking ?? I was about to open this thread any time and you did it :-).
  
  I too thought it was time to talk about MSV's mediocre music as well. (I mean just for the sake of information and impartiality in the forum. Just like so many of IR fans like me who pointed out Dabba's in IR stuff I expect MSV fans to contribute to this thread.)
  
  I saw this movie sirai - it had amazing songs. But BGM score was not good. I felt the difference IR brings to BGM in this movie.
  
  I would also like to reiterate I have nothing against MSV's music and in fact I have started the collection of MSV hits in huge numbers.
  
  Mukund
  
  
  
  From: srikanth (@ proxy1.dpn.deere.com) on: Wed Sep 30 16:51:47 EDT 1998
  
  
  Hi,
  Msv's limitation!, whew great topic.
  First of all - There is a misnorm that he does not have harmonies arrangment etc. There was big limition of 1 and 2 track recording during MSV days. Most of the sounds were never heard or balanced properly.
  Defects: MSV's rerecording I have soft corner.
  He does good stuff, Guys of 75' generation have not heard much of his work. Try to watch movies like Ulagam sutrum valiban, Idhaya kani and many more. They had original scores.
  simple I can demostrate a grandisio (something big). In the movie Ulagam sutrum valiban - "ulagam" song shows expo70, the songs starts with grand string and brass run makes me feel I am in Expo70.Same situation in Japanil Kalaraman - appa amma song!...
  Ulagam is more grand song than the above.
  
  MSV has few limiations, he was not able to choice proper drum sounds as more and more western percussion came up.
  I will post more after I go home.
  
  Srikanth
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Normal Man (@ 12.239.125.16) on: Sat Sep 21 02:06:25 EDT 2002
  
  I thought "Sakalakala Vallavan" ran for Y.G.Mahendran and "karagaatakaran" for Kovai Sarala.....ada raama enna "wonderful" claims....
  
  
• From: Sathish A Great fan of MSV (@ 68.18.66.102) on: Sat Sep 21 12:16:01 EDT 2002
  
  srikanth i agree with ur thoghts - these 1970s generation never have any hold on MSV because by the time they listen to music - probably they would have started with IR. so how these people will know about "what/how/where he composed songs". Let me tell these guys about the orchastration - 100s of instruments used in Yenge Nimmadhi, Pattathu Raani and Ulagam Azhagu Kalaig.. Limitations - nil at that point of time becos the availablity of the instruments, tracks and whatsoever he managed and that point of time no other musicians able to give such a grand music. With out Abaswaram Ramji and Siva Mani - all became popular after 80s/90s. We had less knowledge about the outside world as we did not have any medium or anything to have inspiration. I still believe even in the wester music like Jazz,Pop - they were using mainly Violin, Drums and Bango. Synthesizer and other modern instruments came very late. Tracks technology all came very late. Looking at all these technological difficulties during MSV period. I feel he is far superior the way he composed and orchastrated. People say he has not introduced many singers. PBS, SPB, Malaysia Vasudevan, Vani Jeyaram, Bombay Jayashree, Chandra Babu, Raj Kumar Bharadhi, Jayalalitha, K J Yesudas (S.Balachandar introduced him but pre-dominantly MSV used him and during those period no other MDs used KJ - in other words MSV lifted KJ). I am again telling I am not sure how many 50s or 60s here in this board. But let me tell u one thing MSV gave the life to most of those films he mastered. Please listen to the following grand music he scored and then come back to this thread talk about MSV's alleged "defects". Alaiya Mani, aandavan kattalai, nenjam marappadhillai, nilave nee saatchi,Anbe Vaa, Kalangari Vilakkam,Kudi Irundha Koil,Vazhkai Padagu, Pasam, Pudhiya Paravai, Karnan, Aayirathil Oruvan, Padagotti, Sivantha Man, Naalai Namadhe, Idhayakkani, Suriya Ganthi,Madhuraiyai Meeta Sundhar Paandiyan, Ore vaanam Ore Boomi, Ninaithale Inikkum, Ninaithathai Mudippavan, USV, Andhaman Kadhali, Imaiyam, Polladhavan, Billa Yengirundho Vandhal Siripil undaagum raagathile - do u know how he conceived the opening tune - such a classic one. Sippi irukkudhu will tell a MD how to compose a tune - look at the mixing of Hindustani here even in Raaganag 16 uruvaana varalaru songs. Every tom and harry kuppan and suppan ellarukkum limitations irukkum but how they over came those limitations is very important. Some one said MSV songs are monotonous. It shows he must have been born in 70s. Why IR failed today is bcos of the monotonous music friend. So will be ARR. At one point of time all MDs will stick to their music composition style. I just heard today "Yenge Sellum Paadhai", azhagi, barathi songs - they r the same style of song he did in 80s. So dont say MSV is monotonous. U have to see the age factor. As the MDs grow they will tend to lose the grip of the audience bcos of the same style of compositions. It will happen to every popular MDs. First 20 years of their profession they do well bcos their mind is very strong and later they will bcome tired and lose the tempo and audience. I still rate given the scenario during those 50s/60s/70s even early 80s - MSV did very well. He has seen 4 generations - no MD achieved this feet yet. First let them see 3 generations and then we will talk about other MDs.
  
  
• From: Mani (@ 166.90.39.209) on: Sat Sep 21 14:27:41 EDT 2002
  
  M.S.V is just a mellisai mannar. That's all he knows. Sasi.. avar music potta padatha ellam solla koodathu.. Kannadasan and MGR are 60% responsible for the success of his songs.. Ramamoorthy was with him in the early part of his career. He gave wonderful tunes. But he was not a great experimenter like Raja who gave life to movies not only to songs. I mean BGM. Who said IR has failed. He still gives wonderful songs.. IR is a genius who likes to compose complex songs.
  Ofcourse Viswanathan-Ramamoorthy gave some nice songs like Senthamizh Then Mozhiyal one of my favorites. But don't discard Ramamoorthy when you talk about Viswanathan. Illayaraja was all alone.
  Sometimes he wrote lyrics also. He is an excellent photographer also. In short words he is a genuine artist. He is an emperor of fusion music. MSV had limitations. ARR has limitations. IR never had any limitations. He is equally good in every music. Most complex is Carnatic.. He has vast knowledge. So Satish... your being an MSV fan don't have to affect our thinking which is "IR is the ultimate composer in TFM"
  
  

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