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Everything you always wanted to talk about ARR vs. IR but were afraid..

Topic started by rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on Wed Aug 18 17:12:52 EDT 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Too many posters are using other topics to discuss/slam/comment/praise IR/ARR that I thought we could use this one thread as a catch all for all those posts. Welcome guys!!!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: DAvid VAlliyappa (@ bkj-cache81.jaring.my) on: Tue Aug 24 06:08:28 EDT 1999
  
  Perhaps what marks the distinction between IR and ARR is age and technical perceptions of music alone. Fans of IR feels IR performs better than ARR. The fact remains to be true. IR is better in composing, arranging and bringing out the best from the singers by composing the appropriate beats for them. IR's melodies are novel ones, not taken from outside. It's from IR's soul. But in the other hand perhaps, ARR is more reknown to be technically superior. For his emergence in Tamil Musical changed even IR's way of sound recording, let alone those MDs who copied soley from ARR right from melodies, rap beats etc. IR & ARR are someone not to be compared using the same scale of measurement. They are different. Only the 7 notes are the same. But one should bear in mind that this era is ARRs, measured by fame and fees he bargains for himself. IR vaazhga!!
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy1-external.moline1.il.home.com) on: Tue Aug 24 07:23:03 EDT 1999
  
  Kiru; So there you go, you have your 10 contributions !! I am dead serious,
  Onum puriyale.......till date there is no single person who could say what IR had done new to tfm.
  
  Vijay;
  "how many MSV films are talked about now for re-recording? how many MSV songs are remembered for interlude music? that is my point"
  -- I still remember many, there are many people who still remember this. Punai kaana mudina ulagam irudadam!....if you do not know it does not mean all will not know. They are just afraid to post here, as they are chased out just for the reason they like MDs other than IR.
  
  THE FACT
  Many IR fans do not know what he did new musically. Just talking about his
  greatness without knowing what he did new does not add any value, this talking can be a great thing in this DF. World things differently.
  
  Many directors, fans etc etc...Rajavai pugazndhu pugazndhu keduthutinga... when he started to turn his ears towards this pugazchi, his music took the back seat.
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Tue Aug 24 09:25:16 EDT 1999
  
  srikanth:are you on bench?
  
  
• From: rameshg (@ abd42b3e.ipt.aol.com) on: Tue Aug 24 10:48:04 EDT 1999
  
  Srikanth
  
  Enna solla vareenga. Not everybody would know music in and out like you do.
  
  Do you mean to say that we should not listen to music because we know nothing about music. Do you mean to say that if the music stirs my heart that I should not praise it because I do not know to differentiate or analyze 'musically'?.Or probably you mean to say that since we dont know how music is made we should write nothing in this forum?.
  
  The no of thread on IR in this forum probably - unga kannukku uruthala irukkirathu pola irrukku. oru paththu MSV pathi thread arambichu vidatan.
  
  Srikanth, only time will tell. IR is the previous generation of musician before ARR. So koncham avara pathi discussion erukkathan seiyum. IR and ARR comparison irukathan seiyum. After ARR's period if there are still people talking about IR ,like probably you do about MSV, and which I feel will certainly happen, IR has achieved enough. This only time will tell.
  
  Ennakku ennavo neegathan antha punnaiyo thonuthu.(NOM :-))
  
  
• From: Swami (@ nat135022.ericy.com) on: Tue Aug 24 10:57:04 EDT 1999
  
  Mr.Srikanth,
  I just asked 10 new things raja did for tfm, MSV was bought into the picture just to prove what raja had done had been already done by MDs of the past.
  
  This sounds absolutely crappy. Tell me one single great BGM piece from a movie for which MSV has scored. Don't tell me some XYZ movie and talk about the complex structures. I don't want complex structures, give me catchy BGM's which remains a s a master piece. I can give u upteen number of IR's.
  
  Now coming to 10 things new IR did. I can quote a lot, but let me say a few,
  
  *Really showed how a violin and flute can be used. MSV, I'm sorry, but for TKR he was absolute nothing as far as violin progressions were concerned.
  
  *dappangutthu (what MSV or any other did were not dapanguthus' but something really pitiable)
  
  I can go. But I really don't have the patience to write. One thing I accept, ARR is ruling today; he is a master marketing person. He's always seen to that either the producer or director or the star cast was sufficient enough to add hype to the movie. Just look at the movies he's scored so far this and last year. Look at the profile of the crew he has worked with. He's given all the world of publicity and stunt for even 'podalanga' matters. Where as IR and MSV failed in these lines. Just because he's introducing high bass and drums in a song, people dance to that. When the next movie comes, hell with those songs. Where as MSV and IR's songs are not so. I still wonder at those soft violin progressions in the song, "chittu kuruvi muttham koduthu....". Tell me one mesmerizing soft progression bit of ARR. I can quote thousands from IR. Miles apart for comparison.......
  
  
• From: hari (@ hud04a01.ml.com) on: Tue Aug 24 11:22:47 EDT 1999
  
  srikanth,
  What ignorance you are talking about?. I dont need a music knowledge to feel what I like, what i dont like and I dont need a music lessons to see something wrong. To me, kamban embandan the beat never flows with song, as if it is doing thani avarthanam. BTW, why cant you tell us, what NEw things MSV did in TFM?.
  
  e.hari
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Tue Aug 24 11:45:19 EDT 1999
  
  Srikanth :
  
  Should one be the "first one" to do something to be acknowledged as great?? Why should greatness of a MD be assessed with "newness" of what he did?? Is that a necessary yardstick??
  
  Do we assess a painter by his "being first" or "new" in doing something? An artist should be gauged by the quality of his outputs, and how weel he has attained his objective.
  
  A MD is supposed to give out music that soothens the hearts of audience.. And a musician, IR, who has touched the hearts of crores of his fans need not be called "great" just because he was "first" or "new" in doing certain stuff. He needs to be assessed and appreciated for the music he has produced and how it has inmpacted his audience!!
  
  "show me 10 things that were new" is not a very appropriate way to assess the work of a MD!!
  
  
  Aruvi : liked ur posting!! :))
  
  chandy
  
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Tue Aug 24 11:48:18 EDT 1999
  
  swami :
  
  "because he's introducing high bass and drums in a song, people dance to that. When the next movie comes, hell with those songs."
  
  This is not really true. Listen to earth, and you'll see the difference!
  
  chandy
  
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Tue Aug 24 12:28:49 EDT 1999
  
  Srikanth:
  
  enna irundhaalum ungaLai oru vishayaththukku paaraatiyE theeraNum (vEra vishayam yEdhum illai :-) NOM to you)). iththanai pEraiyum ethirththu nirka konjam thembu vENum thaan..
  
  
• From: Sabesan (@ ws-209-233-228-167.webvangroup.com) on: Tue Aug 24 12:31:28 EDT 1999
  
  Punai kaana mudina ulagam irudadam
  
  buddy srikanth that applies 100% to u.... addaa pooopaaa.... BGMla MSVaaaa.... idhu lolllu.... melody solunga ok.... BGMna appuram naan roomba vizhundu vizhundu sirikannnum.....
  
  parava illa eppadiavadhu MSV pathi pesikeetee irukeengaaa.... good....
  
  hello dear other MSV fans, i am not against MSV.... but i feel sorry for some HCMSV fans...
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02958.mayo.edu) on: Tue Aug 24 13:00:57 EDT 1999
  
  Hi everybody
  
  There is definitely a difference in expectation/opinion, regarding 'Quality' of music, between a layman & a musician.
  
  Why so? I dont know--but, I can only give examples of the above phenomenon but I cannot explain why. The first problem arises when you have to describe 'Quality' of music. (For a metaphysical understanding of 'Quality', I recommend Robert Pirsig's "Zen & the art of motorcycle maintenece" & "Lila"; both books provide considerable insight into nature of 'Quality' itself)
  How many people enjoy going to a indian classical musical concert; well, even if you do, most people enjoy the latter half of the concert where 'lighter' ragas and compositions/thillana's/thirupugazh/kavadichinthu etc.. are being sung. Why? This is because they have more 'catchy' elements and are considerably simple. However, the music critic who writes about the 'Quality' of the performance, usually weighs the earlier portions of the concert--say the elaborate exposition of 'Shankarabharanam' with alapanai etc., to comment. This is because, in his view this portion of the concert (though not very catchy to the public) showcases the talents of the musician (both his imagination/creativity and delivery).
  In fact going to the extreme, in Hindustani classical concerts, for the most part only 2 or 3 ragas are performed over 4 hrs; each of them elaborated greatly; for the most part the 'Sahithyam or lyrical compositon' is omitted or kept to a minimum & alap (alapanai) dealt with exhaustively. As a consequence, I know people who can enjoy carnatic classical music more than Hindustani classical.
  
  Next, there is difference between traditional indian music and traditional western music concepts. There is an excellent overview of this difference on the net [Sir Yehudi Menuhin, a well known western classical musician describes in his own words-- http://www.msci.memphis.edu/~ramamurt/icm.html ]. The earlier emphasises--melody while the latter--harmony. It is not to say that there is no melody in WCM but emphasis clearly varies. Now, would you call WCM to be better than Indian Classical Music or vice versa??? The answer varies as per the individual bias, but clearly each individual is different in what type of music one appreciates. In my case (IMHO), I would say Indian classical music is superior because it nourishes the soul!
  
  Now having said all this how does one compare MSV, IR or ARR with one another?
  Clearly MSV and some of musicians of his era and earlier placed a lot of emphasis on melody. Examples that come to mind include 'Enathu ULLame, Inba veLLame' (MS Subalakshmi in Meera; MD-SV Venkataraman); 'Sinthanai Sei Maname' (TMS in Ambikapathi; MD-G Ramanathan); 'Sangeetha Sowbaghyame' (?Tiruchy Loganathan in SampoornaRamayanam; MD--?KVM); my favorite classical song composer KVM--look into KVM's contribution thread) and 'Madhavipon mayilal' by PSusheela; MD--MSV.
  What makes MSV quite unique is his talent to use Ragas UNCONVENTIONALLY. However, there are purists who critisize this usage but again whether you approve of it or not, ONE HAS TO ACCEPT HIS UNCANNY SKILL IN MASTERING SUCH USAGE. For example, the other day I was listening to 'Manthira punagai, minnidum devathai..' from MaNNal Kayiru (MSV melody). He has used 'Revathi' (raga) in a way that has never been used before to bring out a light/romatic song. Usually the mood of 'revathi' is very serious.
  One should not discount the fact the IR has also used certain ragas which were not used frequently in the past with creativity. However, as pointed out earlier, IR used the ragas with harmony (like in a western concept thinking) rather than emphasising on the finer aspects of melody (such as BRIGAS, etc).
  ARR has always been a musician who walks the fine line between trying to obtain layman/public attention/approval (by using harmony) and trying to emphasise the melody (by re-inforcing traditional Indian classical music concepts).
  Consequently, people who are more tuned to hearing melody and have enjoyed MSV/KVM etc., tend to enjoy some of ARR's works (not all) and people who are tuned to hearing harmony enjoy IR (again not all songs)
  Things that are beyond dispute in my mind (IMHO) are that IR was clearly more creative in his earlier days and after the early 90's his creative output has diminished. For more elaborate discussions, please look up other threads and the thread on 'Fornula and IR's music'--discussed hotly by Srikanth, me (Shashi) and others. I had even suggested things such as composing for lyrics (which tends to increase creativity) to improve melodic content.
  Again, no doubt IR has been a MASTER of SITUATIONAL BGM. By that I mean, his music clearly is superior in terms of supporting the 'visuals on screen'. He also popularised the concept of 'theme' music in a movie (ie the same BGM repeated with various instruments/orchestration at various tempo's for various situations in the movie).
  Again, ARR started out as a novice in situational BGM as his background in the field of jingles had given him ample training as to a catchy phrase or melody but not with too much variations with emotions (Offcourse everybody in Ad's are happy selling their products!!!). ARR, has learnt in the last few years and undoubtedly has matured. Please read my review of 1947/earth posted in the ARR's new releases thread for what I mean.
  
  Now, what is the bottom line? Well, it depends! As with everything it depends whether you are a lover of melody or harmony; whether you are interested in interesting patterns created by orchestration or if you would rather listen to Kadri's melodic Sax; whether you want to be intellectually stimulated or want to do some soul searching; whether you like to sing or to dance!! Thats the question!!
  
  Comments (Expecting from Srikanth, Anand, MS, Vijay, NOV, pg,.etc.. just to mention a few as they have been DFers for a long, long time)
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.25.79) on: Tue Aug 24 13:08:52 EDT 1999
  
  There have been threads here on Creativity of MSV etc. without disturbances from raja fans;)) and I have not seen any lengthy discussions on BGM of MSV films leave alone interlude music. I firmly believe that these 2 aspects were definitely not the strengths of MSV. It might be due to the fact that perhaps MSV was using limited instruments that his interlude music always sounded so simple as compared to say 'aruna ghirana' where u have harp, french horn, violins etc.
  
  But still IR would be the one whose name would always be associated with re-recording and interludes music. ARR has still not mastered this art. He has a long way to go before he can give a reasonable BGM for his films.
  
  also, asking deva's brothers to complete re-recording for his films (as he did for padayappa(?)) is not going to help him either;))
  
  

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