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IR or ARR

Topic started by M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on Tue Jan 18 01:03:04 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

hi all, I am Anand from bangalore and a new visitor to the tfm page. I am a great fan of both ARR and IR. I browsed through all the earlier threads on ARR and IR. It seems to me that there are quite a few anti ARRs out here.

Let me tell you something about IRs music. IRs music became popular and sounded different because he tried to bring in a westernization of Carnatic ragas in his songs. Even a dappanguthu was in Lathaangi or sivaranjani. That actually made the difference. Otherwise he is no great MD. One might argue that such a westernization or incorporation of a carnatic raga in a dappanguthu or jazz is something that demands great applause. But IR doesn't deserve that because, if u say u are tuning a song in a particular raagam, you have to bring out the nuances, the laya and bhaava of the raagam in to the song. Just traversing the swaras in the raagam here and there does not mean that u have tuned a song in that raagam. Ilayaraaja has done just that, a mere traversal through the swaras. In many places, there were apaswaras also. ARR has tuned very few songs based on Carnatic ragas but they were classics. For example Mettu podu in Anjali is a beautiful song in Ananda Bhairavi. He has brought out every nuance of the raagam in that song. Minsaara Kanna in padaiyappa is an excellent piece in vasantha. En mel vizhunda mazhai tuliye is again a beautiful piece in kaapi. A real mix of the east and west. That is what u call fusion. Ilayaraaja boasts of having composed songs in rare raagas like chala nattai, kanakangi etc. For example pani vizhum malar vanam in chala nattai is again a pure note traversal. There was no attempt to bring out the nuances in the raaga. So IR knew how to make songs sound good but ARR gives a fine polish to each and every one of his songs. IR composed music for 700 odd films. Hey Ram is his 785th film. Considering 7 songs per movie, he has tuned almost 5500 songs. Huge number indeed but hardly 5% of those songs are listenable others are 100% pure junk. But 99.9% of ARRs songs are listenable and they are also good numbers. What do you say about this?

Regards,
Anand

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Wed Oct 4 13:15:33 EDT 2000
  
  Vikram,
  I would like to know exactly what do you mean by evergreen and fresh.Considering your criteria for a song to qualify it has to be 20 yrs old or more then we will talk about it 12 yrs from now(hope my math is right).
  Trend
  
  
• From: someone (@ 208.142.210.30) on: Wed Oct 4 13:32:39 EDT 2000
  
  Hi Trend
  
  I think you FINALLY got the point. Start comparing Raja with Rahman after 12 years. Till then lets appreciate Raja as a proved genius and Rahman as a talented, growing and improving composer. Let us not get into comparisons before 2005, at the earliest.
  
  
• From: Kamalakkannan (@ 199.29.80.200) on: Wed Oct 4 15:32:22 EDT 2000
  
  ARR cannot be compared to IR. Because, a music director can be compared to another MD. But, a Music Editor cannot be compared to a MD. In this way, IR has originality in his music and tunes too. Here are some songs which was edited by ARR and were hits.
  
  1. 'Kannodu kaanbathellam - Jeans' tune was stolen by a piece of BGM in the old movie 'Kaadhalikka Neramillai' (Yesterday i saw Kaadhalikka neramillai and i made it sure).
  
  2. 'Snekithane Snekithane - Alai payuthe' tune from the old song 'Neramithu Neramithu' from the movie 'Rishimoolam'.
  
  3. 'Konjum Mainaakkale - KKKK' tune from the IR's song 'Andha Mottai maadi eppa varumo' from the movie 'Mr. Madras'.
  
  4. 'Enna vilai azhage - Kadhalar dhinam' tune from an old song 'Thanga padhakkathin mele' from the movie 'Engal Thangam'.
  
  5. 'Vaarai en thozhi - Jeans' tune from 'Nerullu ner nindru partha' (film name i dont know).
  
  6. 'Kannalane - Bombay' tune from 'Sollamale yaar paarthadhu' from 'Poove unakkaga'.
  
  and so many songs were stolen from the wesern pop songs like 'Shakalaka baby' from a mexican pop.
  
  ARR said that he is not listening IR's music because it may be mixed with his music. But IR never repeated his songs even after 800 films.
  
  Kamalakkannan
  
  
• From: SM (@ 63.101.96.1) on: Wed Oct 4 16:06:36 EDT 2000
  
  Kamalakkannan,
  
  I believe "Bombay" was released in 1994 and "Poove Unakkaga" was released in 1996.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.202) on: Wed Oct 4 16:34:12 EDT 2000
  
  KamalakkaNNan: There is a separate thread called Copied songs in TFM. Could you please go through that thread and contribute those that have not been discussed in that thread. Let us not duplicate our efforts in more than one place at a time.
  
  
• From: Kamalakkannan (@ 199.29.80.200) on: Wed Oct 4 17:18:04 EDT 2000
  
  Oh! I'm sorry. I don't know about the copied songs in TFM. The link to this archive was sent by my friend.
  
  Kamalakkannan
  
  
• From: vikram chander (@ 203.199.224.101) on: Thu Oct 5 07:21:33 EDT 2000
  
  Trend,
  Where is the Question of talking about Arr
  songs after 12 yrs when they aldready have lost
  their charm.I don't think any song in Roja or Bombay is comparable with Kanne Kalaimaane(Moondram pirai)or nilaave vaa in Mouna
  Raagam etc.. Just as a music lover and neither
  as a fan of Raja/Rahman think over this point.
  the melodies given by Raja are Far longlasting and glittering. I think this is mainly due to the
  fact that raja relies more on composing rather
  than recording facilities as SPB had rightly said
  in an interview when the same qn. was put to him.
  Regards
  vikram chander
  
  
• From: vikram chander (@ 203.199.224.101) on: Thu Oct 5 07:21:54 EDT 2000
  
  Trend,
  Where is the Question of talking about Arr
  songs after 12 yrs when they aldready have lost
  their charm.I don't think any song in Roja or Bombay is comparable with Kanne Kalaimaane(Moondram pirai)or nilaave vaa in Mouna
  Raagam etc.. Just as a music lover and neither
  as a fan of Raja/Rahman think over this point.
  the melodies given by Raja are Far longlasting and glittering. I think this is mainly due to the
  fact that raja relies more on composing rather
  than recording facilities as SPB had rightly said
  in an interview when the same qn. was put to him.
  Regards
  vikram chander
  
  
• From: G.Ragavan (@ 164.164.150.58) on: Thu Oct 5 08:48:12 EDT 2000
  
  hi what r u doing? comparing two MDs! Great mistake.
  Do u like IR music? Listen to that. why r u much bothered about ARR's music or popularity?
  Do u like ARR music? Listen to that. why r u critising his decline?
  How do u do this? Are u all real music lovers? I can't belive that!
  You love tha charisma of music director than their music.
  
  Is there any ARR fan? Touch u'r heart and say. Is IR a fool?
  Is there any IR fan? Touch u'r heart and say. Do u think ARR didn't give any good song?
  
  Music is music from wherever it be. Enjoy the music.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Thu Oct 5 09:39:07 EDT 2000
  
  Vikram,
  
  From what you said I think your favourite song is Kanne kalaimaane(KK) or Nilavee vaa(NV) which means according to you KK or NV is incomparable to the other songs.
  
  Isn't there any chance someone will have ARR's song as their favourite song?Atleast I have seen many of them say that their favourite song is Kaadhal Rojavae or Ennavale or Nilaa Kaaikirathu or any other ARR song.
  
  I think you are obsessed with these songs which prevents you to try to compare any other great number with this.I agree that the songs you mentioned are great but surely not my favourites and also not incomparable.
  
  ARR has composed many wonderful tunes.I think any music knowledgeable person who doesn't have anti-bias towards ARR's work would vouch for this.But even a layman knows about IR's recording.
  
  Shoot your bullets let me see if I can dodge them..)
  
  Trend
  
  
• From: Krishnan (@ 192.135.244.69) on: Thu Oct 5 10:03:00 EDT 2000
  
  All these problems started when a MORON by name
  Anand started this thread. Its pity that the
  great composer IR and a great Musician ARR are
  being bashed by some unworthy peoples.
  
  Please stop your postings in this forum and discuss some constructive stuffs about music as
  Srikanth, rajaG, rjay and other peoples do.
  
  
• From: vikram chander (@ 202.9.180.102) on: Thu Oct 5 12:57:11 EDT 2000
  
  Trend,
  Let me make it clear that I'am not obsessed
  with IR as you had mentioned.I also like ARR very
  much and have argued with many for him.What I said was if we make a dispassionate comparision
  between the two, IR's melodies are far superior.
  If you say Kanne Kalaimaane is not one of your
  favourite songs,then I'am sorry to say you are
  not at all an IR fan.You are biased to arr.Ihave met many many ARR fans and everyone have this song in their favourites list.
  The way IR brings out the inexplicable sadness of Kamal in that
  particular song,is just incomparable.That is what
  I wanted to convey.IR has given many more songs like this but this one is simply the best of all
  times.I'am sure no music director other than IR
  has done it so effectively(including ARR).First
  we are all music lovers;then only Ir/Arr.
  Therefore think over this. pick out any song of AR
  in such a situation as told above and make a
  dispassionate comparision with KK.If you still
  think the same as you had previosly thought,
  Sorry!!! The "truth" is you don't want to face the real TRUTH hidden behind all falsehood.
  Regards
  Vikram chander
  
  
  
• From: Music fan (@ 208.154.130.13) on: Thu Oct 5 13:37:27 EDT 2000
  
  Hi
  
  Here is my 2 cents. I am not a great critic or a musician, but just a music lover. I have listened to many of ARR's songs and although he has given us good melodies, when I listen to most of his songs, I have a feeling that his music is not complete or fully enjoyable. IMO, when you listen to a song with good pattern/style/melody/rhythm, call whatever you may, there is flow in your mind that sets as you listen to and which goes along with you until the song is complete. So, our mind gets set with the tune. When I listen to some of ARR's songs, their seems to be an unlikely twist or some break/loop or something in the song which seems to abruptly change that disturbs the mental pattern I have about that song. It kind of throws me away from listening to that song. I have been a music lover and I listen to tamil film music, hindi music, carnatic, western music etc. I would rate the best I have listened to in TFM as MSV/TKR combo, MSV and IR. I liked songs from musicians like Shankar/ Ganesh, Gangai Amaran, V.Kumar and T.Rajender. But, sincerely, I feel that the current MDs like ARR, Deva, SAR do not give such good music that lingers on your mind and stays evergreen. Maybe Deva and SAR follow IR's pattern/style but the songs that they give are not unique, and fresh like IR's. In fact, the music created by ARR and the new musicians of TFM are oft repeated, recycled and boring. Being an IR fan, I still am happy and enjoy listening to Raaja's latest numbers. I think the reason being, his music is perfect to listen to . IR's tunes are fresh and unique and the orchestration/style used is different with every song he composes. IMO, he is a composer and not a musician. Hence he can create great tunes with innumerable permutation/combination of instrumentation, orchestration etc. I am sure a good musician who knows very well about music and creation of music will accept this. Beethoven or Mozart are still considered the greatest composers in Westen classical music and even after 100s of years their compositions are still played at concerts around the world. Such is the category to which IR belongs and many contemporary composers/musicians have expressed the same.
  
  IMO, ARR might have an unique style of his own like many musicians around the world. Like for example, in the US alone, there are innumerable bands which compose music in the following styles - pop, rock, metal, jazz, blues, jive, hip hop etc and needless to say more styles are cropping up every day.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Fri Oct 6 12:13:51 EDT 2000
  
  Vikram,
  I really don't understand how by not having Kanne Kalaimaane on my favourites list doesn't qualify me to be an IR fan.I like Poongatru from the same movie better and that is one of my favs.
  
  I agree the way he brings out Kamal's feeling sorry for her state in 1st charanam and later expressing his love which she cannot grasp in 2nd charanam is great.
  
  BaluMahendraa the director gave a excellent opportunity for Ilayaraaja to come up with a great "Thalaatu" and IR delivered.All ARR got in terms of an opportunity for "Thalaatu"(also a short one) was in "Kaadhalan".He did a good job though the picturisation was bad.
  Comapring the only opportunity ARR got for a particular situation with one of IR's best which is supposed to be in that situation and again with numerous opportunities in that situation.
  I agree IR has been mostly successful in Thalaatu songs.
  I don't understand what you mean by truth and TRUTH.
  
  Trend
  
  

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