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IR or ARR

Topic started by M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on Tue Jan 18 01:03:04 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

hi all, I am Anand from bangalore and a new visitor to the tfm page. I am a great fan of both ARR and IR. I browsed through all the earlier threads on ARR and IR. It seems to me that there are quite a few anti ARRs out here.

Let me tell you something about IRs music. IRs music became popular and sounded different because he tried to bring in a westernization of Carnatic ragas in his songs. Even a dappanguthu was in Lathaangi or sivaranjani. That actually made the difference. Otherwise he is no great MD. One might argue that such a westernization or incorporation of a carnatic raga in a dappanguthu or jazz is something that demands great applause. But IR doesn't deserve that because, if u say u are tuning a song in a particular raagam, you have to bring out the nuances, the laya and bhaava of the raagam in to the song. Just traversing the swaras in the raagam here and there does not mean that u have tuned a song in that raagam. Ilayaraaja has done just that, a mere traversal through the swaras. In many places, there were apaswaras also. ARR has tuned very few songs based on Carnatic ragas but they were classics. For example Mettu podu in Anjali is a beautiful song in Ananda Bhairavi. He has brought out every nuance of the raagam in that song. Minsaara Kanna in padaiyappa is an excellent piece in vasantha. En mel vizhunda mazhai tuliye is again a beautiful piece in kaapi. A real mix of the east and west. That is what u call fusion. Ilayaraaja boasts of having composed songs in rare raagas like chala nattai, kanakangi etc. For example pani vizhum malar vanam in chala nattai is again a pure note traversal. There was no attempt to bring out the nuances in the raaga. So IR knew how to make songs sound good but ARR gives a fine polish to each and every one of his songs. IR composed music for 700 odd films. Hey Ram is his 785th film. Considering 7 songs per movie, he has tuned almost 5500 songs. Huge number indeed but hardly 5% of those songs are listenable others are 100% pure junk. But 99.9% of ARRs songs are listenable and they are also good numbers. What do you say about this?

Regards,
Anand

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: JPG (@ 203.126.228.21) on: Mon Oct 2 03:07:20 EDT 2000
  
  I LOVE A R RAHMAN AS HE IS GREAT MUSICIAN.
  I LOVE HIS ALL MUSIC PIECES.
  GREAT EXTREAMLY GREAT ALL.
  I LOVE YOU TOO MUCH.
  
  
• From: kanthimathi (@ 203.199.80.193) on: Mon Oct 2 06:32:13 EDT 2000
  
  Hey guys, why can't you like both of them? Why should there be only either / or? Why can't there be AND? IR is a genius and ARR is a good MD. Why cant't we accept that and be happy? Why does this DF has the same topic again and again?
  
  
• From: kumudam (@ 199.183.245.40) on: Mon Oct 2 14:21:16 EDT 2000
  
  http://www.kumudam.com/nigazh/pg5.html
  
  
• From: Arun (@ 202.54.89.249) on: Tue Oct 3 04:57:22 EDT 2000
  
  I have read the kumudam article, which says ar will get oscar one day. See for getting an Oscar the musician should be good in composing music for varid situations and emotions. Which he badly lacks it. CAn he give a BGM like IR. I can proudly say IR is one of the best musician for composing BGMS in the world. Proof watch his movies. And ARR is moreover a sound Engineer rather than a composer. The article says ARR is popular thru out the world. He is popular where ever Indians are their.
  IR is ever great. He is the only Musician in India, who can write musical notes straight away for varid situations without any instrumental support. Everyone knows he is the only person invited from asia to compose for Royal philharmonic. U.K. Probably Arr is in an era where information is spreading out faster and lot of publicity and marketing stuff involved in selling out music.
  
  Anyhow, nobody can give the Heart touching tunes like Ilayaraja in the typical indian way. His music is natural and everlasting. We don't bother who is number one. We IR fans have enough songs to hear and enjoy. i'm proud and happy to have a great musician in Tamil to listen to great melodies, unfortunately for many it is not the case.
  
  You media people always go behind popularity rather than real stuff. Better avoid comparing Arr with IR. It is like comparing a Pop singer with a Symphony composers like Mozart, Beethoven.. etc. Leave IR alone, let him compose music for the elite IR fans around the World.
  
  -Arun
  
  
• From: ambleen (@ 202.156.2.139) on: Tue Oct 3 05:59:01 EDT 2000
  
  That's really funny that the kumudam article can say such things. Do they know how Hollywood works?
  Do they know John Williams tend to get nominated for 'ALL' the scores he composes because Hollywood like him so much? Do they know Ennio Morricone has never won till today? Do they know Alan Menken has won abt 4 ot 5 oscars juz because he did disney animated movies which the oscar committee is so fond of? Do they know till now Jerry Goldsmith,which many consider to be the best in the world in every genre[juz like our maestro:)] for the past 40yrs, has won only once despite being miles ahead from other Hollywood composers?
  
  Oh pls...how amateurish can these mag people get. Hate it when ppl or worse still magazines write such things. Its juz shows how much thrash knowledge they have abt music.
  
  The truth is already out there like Arun mentioned. To all the ppl who criticize or think IR is not good enough or used to be good & have been in the hiding somewhere till the emergence of ARR(I do feel stupid for saying this but i think its okay as there are many such ppl here).....Proof watch any movies for both BGMs & songs...u'll know!
  
  And don't get me wrong. I also listen to ARR.
  
  
  CYA
  
  
  
• From: Saras (@ 203.126.228.21) on: Wed Oct 4 05:18:41 EDT 2000
  
  USELESS ILLAYARAJA NEVER BE USEFUL TO MUSIC LOVERS AND HIS MUSIC ALREADY DUMPED BY YOUTHS. NO IMPROVEMENT, NO TECHNOLOGY AND STILL OLD FASHION WE DON'T LIKE IT. THE ONLY MAN A R RAHMAN HAS STUFF TO PRODUCE THE SONGS FOR NEW GENERATION BECAUSE OF THAT THE WORLD LOVES HIM. WE LOVE HIM. GREAT MAN GREAT COMPOSER A R RAHMAN.
  
  
• From: Krishnan (@ 192.135.244.69) on: Wed Oct 4 07:28:32 EDT 2000
  
  JKV, JPG, and now Saras. You are taking different
  AVATAR to post useless messages. Immm something
  wrong with you.
  
  
• From: Krishnan (@ 192.135.244.69) on: Wed Oct 4 07:29:38 EDT 2000
  
  JKV, JPG, and now Saras. You are taking different
  AVATAR to post useless messages.
  
  
• From: Mohan (@ 203.124.2.50) on: Wed Oct 4 09:06:36 EDT 2000
  
  Saras I could accept 90 percent from your statement not 100 percent.
  
  
• From: trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Wed Oct 4 10:15:37 EDT 2000
  
  Arun,
  "You media people always go behind popularity rather than real stuff".
  It would be great if you could enlighten us about what is the real stuff.Does it require some profound intelligence to under stand what the real stuff is?..)
  what is the criteria that prevents you from saying ARR should not be compared to IR?Is it the quantity of music he has produced?
  Most of your comments are subjective or IR biased.
  "We don't bother who is number one."
  Even we(arr fans) don't bother who is no.1.We listen to IR's music too.But we think ARR's music has better quality in terms of whatever criteria you name it.However,I agree with you on one count.
  Arr's bgm overall is not yet upto IR's bgm.Though Arr has shone flashes of brilliance.
  
  Ambleen,
  I think your first paragraph has flawed logic and wrong comparisons.You assocaite Jerry Goldsmith to IR saying both are the best.Many people don't consider IR to be the best anymore.Also your facts about other Hollywood composers doesn't say in any way IR deserves the Oscar more or ARR less.
  
  In your second prgrph,though the article had some truth I agree that this magazine writes trash article.I would like to know your stand on the previous article by "lincoln" or "lingan".Was that also trash knowledge?How come you didn't comment abt it or mention about that article?
  
  Your third prgrph is subjective and again IR biased.
  
  Finally , don't get me wrong too.I think I listen to IR more than you listen to ARR including the 80s when was really good and his mostly trash music in 90s barring a few.
  
  Thanks,
  trend
  
  
• From: kk (@ 198.4.92.5) on: Wed Oct 4 11:27:13 EDT 2000
  
  trend,
  if you realy listen to IR, do you beleive songs like rythm can come near keladi kanmani? same director, emotional movies.
  
  Listen to 'O vennila' by ARR and 'Poonkodi than ..' from idhayam by IR. Same theme. Look at the melody, beats, interludes and the emotions IR evokes. On the other hand we have a stale 'Adi thondai melody'. I respect ARR as a decent musician, But if someone says ARR is any better than IR, it would just mean they are ignorant about IR's songs.
  
  I dont know what technology we are talking about. using sample cds and western beats just makes technology?. In that case wasnt Guru a break through? It gave a whole new sound to a whole new world depicted in the movie. So technology is making some alien sounds and calling it folk, as in Tajmahal? There is no place for real tamil music folk flavour, because it uses techologicaly inferior instruments?. If ARR makes his own version of folk, I dont mind, its his experiment. But dont call it techonology and others are lagging beind.
  
  If you listen to 80s synth sounds you will find it funny, same will happen to the so called new sounds in next decade. (This applies to raaja too).
  
  
• From: vikram chander (@ 202.9.182.191) on: Wed Oct 4 12:37:56 EDT 2000
  
  I like both IR&ARR but one thing i would consider worth mentioning is that the songs of ir are evergreen and fresh at anytime whether it is composed 20 years back or recently, which is absent in 90% of Arr's music.I don't say that arr has no talent;He is talented with the keyboard
  and has given good music but he is in no way comparable with Maestro
  
  
• From: trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Wed Oct 4 13:04:04 EDT 2000
  
  Hi kk,
  let's take kk(keladi kanmani) and Rhythm
  I think kk has 6 songs:
  1.Karpoora bommai-nice tune wonderfully rendered by P.Suseela.Conveys the mood of the song well interludes are good and no difference between 1st and 2nd.Overall very good song.
  2.Vaaranamaayiram-again a good tune and really nice variations here.excellently conveys the mood wonderful rendition(i don't know the singer probably SJ).Pretty good song.
  3.Nee paadhi-an average duet song good tune gets boring after a couple of minutes a stale melody I guess.KJY sings it well but SPS is just OK.OK song.
  4.Thendraldhan-a below average racy duet song.
  5.Mannil indha -good tune.this song mainly stands out for SPB's breathless vocals and simple wonder ful lyrics.I just think it's a hyped up song.Good song though.
  6.Enna paduvathu-nothing to write about all i feel is "O Jesus forgive them"..)
  
  Rhythm:
  1.Nadhiye nadhiye-wonderful tune starts nicely in the happy mood and then it has interesting interludes and keeps you guessing when the pallavi is going to be resung wonderful humming of Gangai,yamunai.....very innovative idea.Unnimenon sings it well.Very good song.
  2.Kaatre-a melodious duet song.rahman's usual trademark duet song but he slows it down so that you can feel the light breeze.Interludes are different .Overall a nice song very listenable.
  3.Thaniye-a racy song about love found and love lost.Nice beats but the tune is just OK.Overall just a Ok song.
  4.Anbae-a wonderful melody conveys the mood of the song wonderfully.Very interesting interludes.
  Overall, a wonderful song.Nicely rendered by SS though the pronounciation could be better.
  5.Aiyyo pathikichhu-nothing to write about.
  
  About the BGMs it was good in KK but I haven't seen Rhythm.I also think SPB,Radhika and Geetha do well to elevate the level of the songs.
  So,in my opinion both are very much comparable or Rhythm scores over KK if we consider only songs.
  
  Coming to O Vennila(O V) and Poongodithan(Poo).Till now I haven't tried thinking about these two as comparisons.Both are good in their own respect.I really can't see how O V is inferior to Poo.I thought UnniKrishnan sang it very well.If you acknowledge that the song is slow I dont think it lacks anything.
  I didn't at any time talk about technology.Before technology comes the tune and structure of it and flow of it which are the most important things for a song.
  Frankly speaking,I don't find 80 synth funny.I just think they could have been better.
  
  If there had been any ARR bias I would like to know where and why.I would like to know what you think.
  
  Thanks,
  trend
  
  
• From: kk (@ 203.199.79.42) on: Wed Oct 4 13:06:05 EDT 2000
  
  I strongly disagree with Mr Vikramchander's statement. I don't think any one will hate listening to Roja,Gentleman or Thiruda even though it was composed by ARR around 10 years back.
  
  I think of the other way round.
  IR cannot be compared with ARR as ARR is 100% good music while IR is 5% good music and 95% pure junk.
  
  
  
  

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