Home   Forum   Wiki   Notes   Register   FAQ   Sitemap   About Us   Contact Us  

Old Songs

Topic started by TFM Group on Tue Jan 27 15:47:28 EST 1998.
All times in EDT/EST +9:30/10:30 for IST.

---

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Bhoori (@ user-33qthm9.dialup.mindspring.com) on: Sat Sep 18 16:12:45 EDT 1999
  
  If you are still not convinced, think about modifying the Atthikkai song the way Endha Oor has been modified. Cant be done. The kai isnt a meaningless suffix there.
  
  
• From: Veerabhadram (@ ip076.sd.quik.com) on: Sat Sep 18 16:59:41 EDT 1999
  
  Hi,
  
  It is really nice to see a site dedicated
  for discussing good old tamil songs. This is
  the first time I came across this site and it
  is really excellant. I am really looking for
  such a web sight, afterall I learned some
  good Tamil vocabulary from Kannadaasan songs.
  I like the way you discussed about kAi and
  OOR. I would like a similar discussion on
  "Paramsivan Kazhuthilirundhu Paambu Kettadhu"
  and "Ninaipadhellam Nadhandhuvittal Deivam
  Edhumillai" whenever possible. Though KD
  uses simple language, it is little difficult
  to understand his philosophical songs than
  Romantic ones.
  
  Thanks,
  veeru
  
  
• From: Pala (@ proxy.primus.com.au) on: Sun Sep 19 07:01:32 EDT 1999
  
  Bhoori
  Your discussion,analysis and argument is commendable.How about replacing the NAADU with THESAM-the end product should be still the same.
  As Pal points out that all the OORS exist;in this song Kannadhasa has taken the listener on a guided imagery tour-although the actual meaning of each OOR is different.
  Likeswise in the KAI song, although there were numerous KAIS mentioned they had different meaning to the KAIS.This is why Bhasker has mentioned that Kannadhasan was great in punning the words.Lets say double meaning!!
  Yes I agree with you that it took you only five minutes to recompse the whole poem with the word NAADU.
  I believe OOR was specifically chosen because those OORS really exist(see Pal's posting-there is a PAL and a PALA surfing in this forum).The question here is how many places are called NAADU!
  
  Veeru
  Welcome on board.There is one other discussion in pending-Parthen Sirithen song from VEERA ABIMANYU,started by Bhasker.
  
  
• From: pal (@ spider-tf033.proxy.aol.com) on: Sun Sep 19 09:51:00 EDT 1999
  
  The song from VEERA ABHIMANYU goes like this waiting for your views.
  
  Bhoori!
  I am pal(not pala). Really worth reading what you hv written. Good analysis. May be you can try this song also by changing 'then' with 'thai'. Your views are welcome.
  
  M:
  Paarthen sirithen pakkathil azhaithen
  Anru unaithen ena naan ninaithen
  Andha malaithen idhuvena malaithen.
  
  F:
  Paarthen sirithen pakkam vara thudithen
  Anru unaithen ena naan ninaithen
  Andha malaithen ivarena malaithen.
  
  M:
  Kodithen iniengal kudithen
  Ena oru padi then paarvaiyil kudithen
  Thuli then sindhamal kalithen
  Oru thuli then sindhamal kalithen
  Kaigalil anaithen azhaginai rasithen
  
  F:
  Malarthen pol naanum malarnthen
  Unakkena valarnthen paruvathil mananthen
  Eduthen koduthen suvai then
  Inithen illadhapadi kadhai mudithen
  
  
  Some beauty of it. The song uses 'then' as ending for most of the words.
  Same word 'malaithen' is used with two different meanings in the same line.
  Truly a KD gimmick.
  
  Padithen, suvaithen should be read as 'padi then' and 'suvai then'.
  
  Apart from that there are no word plays. But another beauty of the song is
  The last stanza which is sung by a female. If someone can think what he is meaning it
  Really you will fall for his simple words.
  
  SK
  nijamave naanum niraya oor suthi vandhirukken.
  Anyway second part of that song was not sung by me;-)
  
  Pala:
  this is the second time that someone mistook you and me. It is quiet interesting. it is a must we should know each other. Can yuo mail me.
  
  
• From: Bhoori (@ user-33qtgn8.dialup.mindspring.com) on: Sun Sep 19 14:21:42 EDT 1999
  
  Pala & Pal: Sorry about the confusion between you two.
  
  The existence of "oors" in TN: I am not sure about this. I would concede that if all the oors exist, it is not a bad one. Pala says that "This is a song full of OOR but none with refernce to actual OOR(place)." and Pal says that "All the 'oors' are available in Tamil Nadu.
  But all the oors are referred here in different
  context." I dont know who is correct. I hv certanily never heard of Udalur, Uravur, Mannoor,
  Kaiyur, Kaloor, Kalaiyur, Vizhiyur, Kadhaloor, Kaatoor, Kanniyur, Pallathur, and Keezhur. Keezhoor, Kaattoor, Kalaiyoor and Pallatthoor look possible. Meloor, Velore, Kadalore, Pattinam, Paloor and Mettoor, yes. Karuvoor (Karur?) and Kannoor (Cannanore?) can be attributed to poetic license, if not to ancient names. Maybe someone can throw light on Kaiyoor, Kaloor, Kanniyoor, Udaloor, Uravoor, Vizhiyoor etc.
  
  
  
• From: Bhoori (@ user-33qtgn8.dialup.mindspring.com) on: Sun Sep 19 14:25:01 EDT 1999
  
  I also remember a historical reference to Karuvoor Thevar vaguely - Karuvoor meaning todays Karoor.
  
  
• From: Ramki (@ pm538-21.dialip.mich.net) on: Sun Sep 19 17:58:00 EDT 1999
  
  Pal there is one more stanza in 'parthen sirithen'
  which is
  
  PBS: iravukku iravu sugam pera ninaindhen
  ulagathai naan indru marandhen
  
  PS: ulagathai marandhen
  urakkathai marandhen
  unnudan naan ondru kalandhen
  
  
• From: sk (@ azure.nus.edu.sg) on: Mon Sep 20 03:47:18 EDT 1999
  
  Ah! niRaya postings in this thread, for a change!
  Bhoori, neengaL ezhudhiyadhaik kaNdu bhooriththup
  pOnEn. I am busy today. Will respond tomorrow
  after reading your reply carefully tonight.
  
  
• From: Bhasker (@ ppp-89-50.bng.vsnl.net.in) on: Mon Sep 20 06:05:19 EDT 1999
  
  Guys:
  
  I am really glad that the debate is so lively. pArthEn sirithEn is easily one of the best songs by KD (no pun intended here, it is just an acronym). Such a lovely rendition of Sahaana.
  
  I have a few more songs that I want to bring up. Someone should write up the lyrics of Ayiram karangaL neetti from Karnan. Here are the first two lines:
  
  Ayiram karangaL neetti
  anaikkindRa thAyE potRi
  aruL pongum mugaththai kAtti
  iruL neekkam thanthAi potRi
  
  Every bit of this song says something about the utility value of Sun that is not mythical but practical. Also, I have never been able to decide if the last line above is:
  
  iruL neekkum thanthaAi potRi
  
  or what I quoted above. Since he referred to thAi in the first line, I thought he referred to thanthai in the second line. For that, the second word should be neekkum instead of neekkam. It makes sense either way you read it.
  
  
• From: sk (@ azure.nus.edu.sg) on: Mon Sep 20 08:03:39 EDT 1999
  
  Bhoori:
  
  I see two issues. First, whether those "oors" actually exist
  as Pal claimed. I am not 100% sure on this.. my guess is that
  except a few most of the other "oors" do exist.. you should do
  a penetrated traveling into various parts of Madurai and Ramnad
  districts to see what kind of funny "oor" names are out there!
  Even those left out few could have "very nearly sounding oors"..
  for example there is a place called kAththaloor in Ramnad Dt..
  this is close to kAthaloor. My guess is that Kannadhasan (folks:
  please don't abbreviate Kannadhasan as KD) decided to write this
  song using actual "oor" names and, at a few places introduced
  "oors" that don't exist. Overall, to me it looks like the song is
  very nicely founded on actual oor names, but used in a very
  different (non-oor) way to denote various stages of life.
  
  Second, you are saying it is a mere gimmick and formula song.
  I don't agree with your comments..
  
  Objectukku Property Azhagu formula. Kannadasan also has followed
  a similar approach here..
  
  Look at the excellent overall organization of the stages of life
  and the choice of verbs. They don't at all look like just casually
  saying a sequence of happenings and adding "oor" wherever a rhyming is
  needed (like, for instance, your kAppiyoor example). Take the
  beginning charanam for example. He was living in his father's body
  (vAzhndhirundhEn), he floated in the relationship (midhandhirundhEn),
  he entered his mother's womb (kudi pugundhEn), he fell into this
  earth at birth (vizhundhuvittEn).. the choice of this is in total
  agreement with the frustrated character who sings this song.. who
  thinks why the hell he was born! The excellent choice of words/verbs
  continues.. kaNNooril thavazhndhirundhEn (thAyin kaNNum karuththum
  eppOdhum thavazhum kuzhandhai meedhE irukkum) kaiyooril vaLarndhirundhEn
  (thandhai eppOdhum kuzhandhaiyai kaiyil thookkik koNdE iruppaar)
  kAlooril nadandhu vandhEn (the walking, growing stage), kALaiyoor
  vandhuvittEn (reached the current youthhood). Goes on and on.. see
  Pal's posting again to see the beautiful choice of the "oors" and
  also check out the song for the verbs used. Wonderful isn't it? Do
  you still think it is object-ukku property type?
  
  Look further at Kannadhasan's
  
  Kadhaloorai Kaattiyaval
  Kaattooril Vittu vittaal
  
  The lady showed the way to one thing but led him finally into something
  totally different! Is there any such beauty in your modification..
  
  Kadhallooril Vaazhndha Mangai
  Kaiyoorai Kazhuvi Vittal
  
  Your replacing "oor" with "nAdu" is, yes, algorithmic.. but Kannadhasan's
  original is neither algorithmic nor any casual gimmick. Clearly, as
  you yourself agree, you have simply modified Kannadhasn's lines and
  nothing else. Surely, only someone of the calibre of Kannadhasan can
  write the original beauty in 5 minutes, whereas, you or I or Vadivelu (the
  actor who seems to do such modifications in plenty in his comedies)
  can only make a modification in 5 minutes. I also think Kannadhasan's
  choice of "oor" was right because of the various "oor" names available
  for playing around. (In the movie, kAdhalil thOlviyutra nAyagan oor oorAga
  sutri alaigaiyil oruvan ivan mEl paridhAbappattu, "EmpA? nee endha oor?"
  endru kEtkiRAn. nam nAyagan virakthiyAna sirippudan ip pAdalai pAdugiRAn.)
  
  Finally, the comparison with 'aththikkAi' song is irrelevent. It is true
  that the 'kAi' song is of a richer calibre.. BUT, that doesn't mean that
  the "oor" song is not of a high class. My prayer to Kannadhasan:
  "kavinjarE, nee mEloorilirundhu keezhoor vandhu ivar kAdhooril neeyE uraiyoor."
  
  
• From: Bhoori (@ user-33qtglc.dialup.mindspring.com) on: Tue Sep 21 01:48:17 EDT 1999
  
  Pala, Pal and SK: Thanks for taking the time to read my postings/make lucid counter arguments.
  
  I agree with SK to some extent. If all these "oors" actually exist, this is an interesting lyric, to say the least. If a substantial proportion of these "oors" exist in Kavignar's mind only, well, then I am inclined to consider this as a gimmick only.
  
  I also agree with SK about the nice words being used. But the point is adding a "oor" suffix does not improve or worsen the quality of words. e.g.
  
  Kadhaloor Kattiayaval
  Kattooril Vittu Vittal
  
  could be equivalently written as
  Kadhal Mogam Mootiyaval or
  Kadhal Nilai Kaatiyaval
  Kanneeril Moozhgaditthal
  
  The words are equally good - at least, IMO, the words are equally good. Then what is the justification for the "oor" (or naadu or dhesam or aaru and so on) approach? If these "oors" actually exist, it is kinda cute and feels good - even though this approach looks contrived. SK, this is the area that you have not addressed. As you say, the words are appropriate and bring out the right ambience for the slightly virakthi+gnani+santham mood of the song, there is no justification for the "oor" approach. What does the addition of the "oor" suffix give the listener here? Superficially, it looks like the Kavignar has come up with a novel approach. But this is contrived and artificial. At least, if the "oors" actually exist, it would, in some not easy to explain way, make me feel that this song is nice.
  
  
  

---

List all pages of this thread

Post comments