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WHY IR CAN NOT BE THE BEST OF TFM?

Topic started by karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on Sun Jan 31 04:05:48 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have found since I came into this forum that there are many IR lovers who, just would not pay heed to listen to great works of Viswanathan Ramamoorthy or the like who had done wonders to the Tamil Film Music, but only go about claiming him to be the best.

Similarly, the ones who do not treat IR as the best have not found an opportunity to compare his works or so called creations with the great works of other musicians.

I would like the arguments to confine only to the Tamil Film songs in their completeness, and please, don't bring in the Re-recording or the Back Ground Music of a film, or separate albums from the MDs if any. After all, when we hear songs we don't always think of the movies they came from!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Fri Feb 5 07:39:32 EST 1999
  
  SuresH...Maybe, you deserve an IR-OSCAR!
  
  I could never have put things in a better perspective! Great work , buddy!
  
  Karthi, I am slightly busy with work, thanks to my spending ALL of the last four days in TFM.Hence I was slightly apprehensive about your formidable challenge going unanswered. But Suresh has more than comprehensively answered you. Salient points are:
  1. We didnt merely claim IR as great because he used WCM. He achieved that in additon to Folk, Carnatic etc.
  2 IR different raaagangalai try panninara? Nalla kelvi. Good question. But I am not the right person to answer that. I know little of Carnatic..enakkku kelvi gnanam thaan(That dialogue shoud remind to you you-kno-who!). The right person to address this queStion to is one MR. Srirangam Lakshminarayanan. This IR-FANATIC(?)(probably..."who else but a nut-case fan of IR will say that IR has given great melodies in and innovated in CARNATIC music?".. I hear you asking!) has written , not one , not two but 14 articles on CLASSICAL ILAYARAAJA. I am sure you have seeen these...
  (I hope you dont dub him an IR-BLIND "thukkiliyoondu manasu".:)... I took your chide in a friendly manner, BTW. "NOT"=No Offence Taken:))
  
  Enakku chinnondu manasu thaan! Thukkiliyoondu rasanai thaan! Luckily, despite this "CM" and"TR" , I have chosen IR as the object of atention of my "Ch.Manasu". This means that I am exposed to the BEST of BEST in several forms of music. I am experiencing the pleasure of savouring the CREATIVITY of an original mind in VARIOUS FORMS of music. I dont need an occasional Junoon, Fateh Ali Khan , Bryan Adams or Kuch Kuch hota hai to satisfy me. My IR provides me all the music I want and need. If that makes me a "CM", so be it. I am not losing anything by it, luckily, thanks to Raja:)
  Whereas, a MSV fan, come to think of it, cannot say the same. That doesnt detract from MSV's greatness. Still, THAT adds to Raja's greatness:)
  
  BTW, You have addressed me as Raja. Naan verum Raj thaan. Raja= "A" class music tharum (Ilaya)Raj(a) thaan! Ennai Raj-ne kooppidunga!
  
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Fri Feb 5 08:02:03 EST 1999
  
  Karthi, The reference to ARR's kathals was in pure dhkjsfl spirit. It is my weakness...even when I am arguing so passionately, I cant helP taking potshots at ARR:)..I am sorry to see it conveyed the impression of demeaning MSV.I Sincerely apologise:)
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-151.il.us.ibm.net) on: Fri Feb 5 09:24:15 EST 1999
  
  Hi,
  
  Raja fans:
  Just denying all the facts does not count,
  
  Regarding the song structure...the creator of word light music in tfm was MSV.
  how many songs of MSV you guys have heard, I like to know. Basically poonaI (Cat) kannai mudiana ulagam irutividum - same thought you guys have -- , Come out and listen to more music -- there are other musicians who have done or had done.
  Calling Sippi irukuthu as KB and Kannadasan's work is really funny, Calling nayagans song or mouna ragams songs as kamal and MR or PCSriram and MR , (to insult further it is the work of GV & MR) Can you sit and hear if spb reads out the lyric , without the tune ...All Kanadasan's songs for that matter got the life thru MSV tune.
  
  Secondly you did not answer to my claim ,
  Raja spoilt the lyrics - forced the write to scribble non-senses.
  Raja did not fight back with ARr, just surrendered tell me 5 hits raja in the 90's
  (I know you will come with a list - heard by very few in TFM-df only)
  What happened to the symphony...he got credit even without hearing it.
  How many songs raja has composed for pre-written lyrics, simply Raja cannot compose for prewritten lyrics. "Sutham"
  
  BTW: More movies for BGM,
  Nalai namathe, Enge mama, Nan avan illai
  ....I can give you a big list, this will do if you hear them. PLEASE ! PLEASE HEAR MORE...YOU HAVE NOT HEARD MSV's WORK,
  
  First MSV then comes Raja ...
  
  
• From: Clarify (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Fri Feb 5 11:13:02 EST 1999
  
  If someone says, Raja is better than MSV, then there could be only one reason for it : THEY HAVE NOT LISTENED TO MSV. Cooool. Srikanth, you have been using this (il)logic throughout this thread. Mind sparing us?
  
  So what if Raja cannot compose for prewritten lyrics? I'll say MSV cannot compose WITHOUT prewritten lyrics. Please stop arguing about their modus operandi ... this is gonna take us nowhere. Only output matters. And Raja scores here. For every good MSV song you name, I can name FIVE from Raja, and for every MSV movie with good BGM, I can name 100 Raja movies. Sheer numbers, sir.
  
  And please educate me ... Were KVM,Ghantasala etc. around before MSV? I have heard a few of their real oldies and these follow the same structure : Prelude-Pallavi-Interlude-Charanam etc.
  
  Raja gave up to ARR? Again, I dispute that hotly. It is a tribute to the genius that inspite of adversity, he did what he always did. With all and sundry writing him off, he believed in himself. When he realised that he needed to make subtle changes in style because of the changing tastes of people; he took his time (It is difficult to change, especially if you are old) but just watch how well he has adapted; and how well it is paying off.
  
  I have nothing against MSV (honest) but just listen to his scores for Neenga Nalla Irukkanum; and MSV-TKR's score for a recent Sathyaraj movie. Awful would be a kind word for the music. No sir...when it comes to coming back, Raja is unparallelled.
  
  Again, Raja spoiling lyrics is not relevant to their musical knowledge. (And when on this subject, listen again to the lyrics in (the few) post-Kannadasan MSV movies. .. Absolutely nothing to write home about...).
  
  I belive Raja composed for pre-written lyrics in Guru ...this one movie should settle the claim that he cannot compose for prewritten stuff.
  
  
  
• From: Swami (@ wp2.ericy.com) on: Fri Feb 5 11:25:26 EST 1999
  
  Well Mr.Srikanth claimed that MSV did not have any reference and IR did have MSV as one. One thing which he misses here is the style of both these people. IR has a fusion of folk/carnatic with WC. I guess IR had references like Sri. Thiyagarajar, Sri. Muthuswamy Dixitar.....and better not MSV. As far as folk.....that's his cup of tea. Well what I really understood or rather understand is, IR is more influenced by the compositions of Sebastin Bach. If you see all his violin interludes, Bach's effect and influence would be revealed. So the bottom line is MSV did have Bach, Mozart, Beethovan,.....for WC and Sri. Thiyagarajar, Sri. Muthuswamy Dixitar....for carnatic. What more does a genuine...got my word 'genuine' composer need? So there is no point in arguing wrt references.
  
  MSV is great. My appa is a MSV fanatic and he's got a huge collection. So I had a opportunity to listen to many of his songs. I still have my personal favorites of MSV(chittu kuruvi mutham koduthu...is my fav....lovely violin pieces). But the basic fact is MSV is a person who relied more on tune and lyrics and not on arangements. IR is not so.
  
  Coming now to BGM. Just imagine watching a movie without BGM. Say u watch "mouna raagam" without that classy bit. It will be nothing but crap. So claiming that BGM is not a criteria for greatness is absurd. MSV is nowhere near IR as far as BGM is concerned (ARR is no where near MSV !!).
  
  Raja spoilt the lyrics - forced the write to scribble non-senses......a true fact.
  
  ell me 5 hits raja in the 90's. I know you will come with a list - well I know its childish to give a list. But me being a "nutty" IR fan, had to support my man.....
  
  >Chinnahambi 1991
  >Thalapathi 1991
  >Chinnagounder 1992
  >Guna 1991
  >puthu puthu ar..1990
  >Veera 1994
  >KM 1998
  Well more are there. I'm sick of typing. I agree over the last few years, not all IR's albums are good. But he still amazes us with some songs. That's a fact. Give him KB again man, I bet on anything in this world, he would give us an another wonder. He's ruled and mesmerized us for the past 25 years. Any buddies fav collection will definitely have atleast 50 songs of IR( proof guys coming to US bring them.....I've did and I've seen). That's enough to prove his supremacy. He's beyond #1......
  
  Cheers,
  Swami
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ ss04.nc.us.ibm.com) on: Fri Feb 5 12:19:26 EST 1999
  
  Karthi:
  You should take a few pointers from Srikanth's arguments instead of making preposterous statements like "IR's songs sound as if someone is reciting a dialogue.." ! You arguments are lop-sided and assume simply too much ! They seem to depend on your preference for tunes ! I think your knowledge of TFM begins and ends with the tune of a song ! Tell me honestly, how often have you appreciated a movie's BGM while watching it ? (I know I am taking some liberties here, but since no participant here has taken anything personally, I think I am still on track, correct me if I am not :-)). Karthi, you can understand IR's works only if you get more actively involved in his songs. Your interest is only in singing them and hence you are unable to see beyond the tune - as far as I am concerned this is fact - please do not feel offended, it is not a statement against your personal qualities, but merely my observation after reading your posts :-)
  
  I was a bass guitarist. The bass guitar has the lowest frequency (probably next to the foot drum). With ARR's latest recording techiniques and simple, but catchy bass 'tunes', it is easy to identify the bass guitar. For example, you can hear it clearly in "Humma" and "Oorvasi" - well, that was more of a simulation than an actual bass. But with IR's relatively poorer recording techniques and the poor quality of tapes in those days, it is virtually impossible to identify the bass score, much less reproduce it accurately - which I had to do to play for various programs and culturals in college :-) You have to listen real carefully and in fact, at times you have to put the tune out of your mind to listen to the bass ! That is when you really begin to listen to IR's songs ! Let me put it this way - if I were to strip the various components of IR songs like "Anjali, Anjali, Anjali" or "Vegam, Vegam" from Anjali, I could show you atleast 6 different tunes from each song !!! Each one as complex and melodious as the other ! Repeated interludes you said - for that one statement, I ought to disqualify all your arguments :-) Each magnificient interlude of IR would have more 'tunes' than probably all the songs in any given movie by ARR !!! You see, the tune is a basic component - no doubt, very important, but genius is taking the tune and breathing life into it ! In that context MSV merely played out the roles during his period as did his predecessors - or maybe you want to argue that MSV's tunes bettered anything written before his advent ;-) IR is the one who set precedents, truly.
  
  I know Srikanth may argue by saying that we can predict IR's bass score by simply finding out the chords - this is not entirely wrong, but more often than not, I have found rythm guitarists picking out the bass first and then identify the chords - if Srikanth sees IR's songs as algorithmic, I see them as genuine WCM pieces ! But there are songs like "Kannan Vandu", "Chinna Chinna" and so many others, where you would either have to be IR or God himself to predict the bass scores :-)
  
  Srikanth:
  IR's harmony is very traditional - do you agree ? ARR takes special pains with the harmony part and technically it is possible to create a harmony for any tune, however complex it may be. IR's harmony sounds flat, like you said, but as a trained WCM (Raj, I am not a trained WCM, sorry :-)) you ought to know best that IR's harmonies fall well within the rules of WCM, whereas ARR's is more experimental. Is it a fault of IR that he tends to be true to a style while executing it ? But I agree, in this area ARR must have put more effort than IR because I suppose beyond a certain point WCM itself is algorithmic :-) But I don't think IR ought to be blamed for that !
  
  Karthi, IR's genius extends well beyond the early 80s that you talk of :-) I find this similar to IR fans saying that ARR was good initially and then went down :-) I too feel that way, and am beginning to understand why ARR fans dislike those statements so much :-) BTW, neega 'boy' postera, 'girl' poster ? Karthi is such a unisex name ! Though I have seen others address you as 'sir', you posts indicate that you are either a very polite guy or a very stubborn girl :-) Of course, you don't have to answer this question if it offends you :-)
  
  Raj:
  I think I deserve a break after 8 odd months of posting :-) Since guys like you, Suresh and Swami are keeping the activity alive and well, I think I can afford a small break without having to worry about denial of justice to IR's genius :-)
  
  
• From: vimal. (@ atrium-pc55.inre.asu.edu) on: Fri Feb 5 13:31:44 EST 1999
  
  IR ca be the best if he stops promoting his progenies. The song Alaimeedu in KK would've been a Materpiece but for Bhavatharini's singing. Similarly, KR seems to do extremely good when composing on his own. BUt when helping his Father, simply spoils it. Eg. Ullasam and Grahan.
  
  

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