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Raga of song please

Topic started by Gopal Prasad (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on Sat May 17 07:42:45 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

Note: You may want to refer to the list of raga based film songs before posting a query.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Ramaswamy Gireesan (@ m42.m59.big.ac.at) on: Wed Mar 25 10:52:02 EST 1998
  
  Anand: reg. naRumagiyE, I think Geetha is right. The song cannot be said to be in a particular raga, as there are also traces of neelamari towards the end.
  
  G. Ramaswamy
  
  
• From: Mux (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Wed Mar 25 12:52:50 EST 1998
  
  Hi Pal,
  
  I had not checked it in the KBD, but was skeptical about some swara being different but was not sure if it was absence of Ni. Do check it out.
  
  Mux
  
  
• From: pal (@ 128.101.145.87) on: Wed Mar 25 15:10:46 EST 1998
  
  Hi Ramasamy,
  What is this raga neelamari? ( or is it neelambari )
  
  
• From: Rajaraman (@ 192.122.135.224) on: Wed Mar 25 21:05:36 EST 1998
  
  Pal
  As we discussed earlier, narumugaye is a kind of funny song in terms of classical aspects.
  The "neeyaa" part song sung by Bombay Jaysree is based on Naattai and that by Unni is Gambeera naattai. The interludes follow some hindustani raga. And finally, Unni closes with a Neelambari touch.
  Now we get one more raga "Kamala manohari" for this song : )
  Geetha,
  Can you explain about the two versions of this raga? Also, what is the technical difference between Adana and Darbari kanada?
  
  
• From: Anand (@ sabre.rttinc.com) on: Thu Mar 26 01:41:40 EST 1998
  
  Someone tell me the difference between Kaanada and Darbaari Kaanada.
  I'm asking this because, Geetha said "Taaj Mahaaley" by Hariharan was in "Darbaari Kaanada" while I thought it was in Kaanada.
  Also, someone said "Kannaalaney" in "Bombay" was in Darbaari Kaanada....Is it correct?
  Please confirm
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Thu Mar 26 11:22:56 EST 1998
  
  Kannaalane has many shades of Dharbari Kanada, but it's not quite pure DK. I thought it may have a different name, maybe it's like Adana.....DK and Kanada differ in the paryogams and slight variations in the Arohanam and Avarohanam. It's the Hindustani version of Kanada, hence it picks up other notes here and there.
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Thu Mar 26 11:26:43 EST 1998
  
  Ramaswamy Sir: That Neelamani comment seems to be pointing in the right direction, Kamala Manohari is a janya of Sarasangi, as is Neelamani.....Maybe there is a connection there.....Also, your web page has an excellent collection of songs. Thanks for providing it.
  
  Also, can anyone help me with the other ones I questioned? Thanks in advance.
  
  Mux: What song are you referring to, as having the absence of the Ni?
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Thu Mar 26 11:30:20 EST 1998
  
  Pal: Neelamani is a janya of Sarasangi and sounds a bit like Siva Ranjani - Remember the famous song Nalam Thaana from Thillana Mohanaambal? That was one of the few songs written in Neelamani.
  
  Neelaambari is completely different, it's a janya of Hari Kamboji and it is said to put one to sleep - a Thaalaatu ragam.
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Thu Mar 26 11:33:42 EST 1998
  
  Rajaraman: I'll get my Raga Pravaham book out in the weekend and fish out the technical difference b/w the ragams. It's in the Swara structure, as opposed to anything else.....if you can get hold of it, please listen to the swaras Seergali sings, they don't follow the exact pattern or structure of Dharbari Kaanada......
  
  
• From: anon (@ ts5-7.slip.uwo.ca) on: Thu Mar 26 12:09:51 EST 1998
  
  My two cents worth:
  
  1) The song from iruvar combines the scales chalanattai and misra mand. People seem to get nattai and gambira nattai shades because both are janya ragas of chanattai. The pallavi is in chalanattai scale (does not imply that it follows the swara patterns for it. for e.g. he shies away from using the vivadi swara patterns like ma ga2 ga1, unlike IR) the interlude goes to misra mand and the charanam closes out in misra mand. (This last bit is too similar to the anjali song from duet in the same ragam).
  Kamalamanohari is a janya ragam of sarasangi, as pointed out. Something like gambiranattai but has dha1 in the descent. I don't see any trace of dha1 in the song.
  
  2) Unless there is more than one song by Purandara Dasa with the tile hanuma mathave, this song is in the ragam jayamanohari. To my knowledge, there are no classical compositions in Sumaneesa ranjani (the pratimadhymam counterpart of sudha dhanyasi). Only IR has used this scale, for instance in a song from ponnuketta purushan and a slokam in India 24 hours. This is obtained by modal shift of tonic from chandrakauns.
  
  3) The interludes in the malargale songs are in saraswati, for instance the guitar notes: sa sa ri ma pa pa ma dha (repeated) and then ma pa dha sa ni dha pa ma dha pa ma ri sa dha sa...
  But the song itself uses the ascent descent pattern sa ri2 ma2, pa dha2 ni2, sa along with the saranga type ri2, ga2, ma1 in between, as when Hariharan sings something like vanna nilave nilave... I don't know the name of this ragam. But for the saranga pattern this would have been hamsanadham (one variant, that is, derived from dharmavathi). IR has used something like this in the song oru devadai vandhadhu from naan sonnathe sattam. He does not use dha 2. Thus it is the more conventional hamsanadham with the saranga pattern woven in. (I have heard that ARR learnt some carnatic music Dakshinamoorthy who also taught IR. Plus IR and Dakshinamoorthy colloborated on the malayalam movie Kaveri (fabulous songs) in which they use a hamsanadham type scale along with both ma's. Might this explain it?)
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Thu Mar 26 12:38:09 EST 1998
  
  GOVINDAN(Anon): The song Hanumana Mathave is definitely in Sumaneesa Ranjani, a ragam similar to Madhuvanthi and Vijeya Saraswathi ragam (song Charanam Vijeya Saraswathi by Muthaiyya Bahavathar sung by Seshagopalan). It is defined in the Raga Pravaaham book and also in all instances that Rajkumar Bharathi has sung it as being so. It takes the Melakartha Dharmavathi. Maybe you're talking about another song in Jaya Manohari (I'll check my books for this ragam, maybe it's bears similarity too, or is another name for Sumaneesa Ranjani.....)
  
  By the way, cool explanations for the songs, Thanks, please can you help with the others that I sent? It's so good to see such evaluations, we don't get this type in the UK often....
  
  
• From: anon (@ ts17-9.slip.uwo.ca) on: Thu Mar 26 12:50:35 EST 1998
  
  Geetha,
  
  I checked the Raga Pravaham book, and it lists sumanesa ranjani (other names: samudra priya and sumanesa priya) as a (pentatonic scale) janya raga of the 56th not 59th. Madhuvanti has the following pattern:
  ni sa ga ma pa ni sa
  sa ni dha pa ma ga ri sa.
  May be there is another scale with the same name as the one I gave!
  Jayamanohari is a janya raga of kharaharapriya and has no connections with SR
  
  Will see if I can say something meaningful about your other queries...
  
  BTW the nalamthana song from Thillana Mohanambal, isn't it misra sivarajani (using both ga's that is)?
  
  
• From: pal (@ 128.101.145.88) on: Thu Mar 26 17:02:52 EST 1998
  
  Great discussions! Thanks a lot anon and geetha!
  
  There are lots of variations tried in mishra sivaranjani too. One should use both ga and both dha in mishra sivaranjani right?
  
  kudagu malai song in karagattakaaran is an interesting variation in mishra sivaranjani with the importance going to higher ga.
  
  
• From: pal (@ 128.101.145.88) on: Thu Mar 26 17:06:03 EST 1998
  
  mux :
  
  oru ganam and varuthu varuthu are pentatonic and could be said as mohanam. But I feel oru ganam song might be sudha saveri.
  
  I am sorry! sivakami nenaippinilE has ni clearly...
  
  manam virumbuthE is chala nattai scale.
  
  
  
• From: pal (@ 128.101.145.88) on: Thu Mar 26 17:10:15 EST 1998
  
  Geetha :
  
  thanks for clarifying on Neelamani. But what is the arohanam/avarohanam of neelamani?
  
  
• From: anon (@ 4037ad.sscl.uwo.ca) on: Fri Mar 27 10:49:42 EST 1998
  
  Some scholars say that tilang permits the use of ni2. If that is true then the charanam of varuthu varuthu from Brahma is in tillang. It uses both ni's. for instance the first few lines of the antara are something like:
  ni2 ni2 ni2 sa
  ni2 ni2 ni2 (ga) sa
  ni2 .. ni2.. sa pa ni1 pa ma
  ga ma pa (ni1) pa...
  The pallavai uses ri 2. One of the interludes goes into mohanam and there are shades of hamsadhwani in the other...
  (Check out the wonderfully camouflaged shanmugapriya ragam in the song "rathiri neram" from the same film!)
  
  shades of suddha saveri in mohanam songs can be attributed to tonal shifts. Also, in the vandadu vandadu song from kilipetchu, which is in sriranjani, you might get shades of karnataka khamas or in the andhimazhai song you might get shades of Ramani and so on...
  
  
• From: Mux (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Fri Mar 27 13:49:20 EST 1998
  
  Hi,
  
  Anon:
  I felt vandhadhu vandhadhu from Kilipechchu was Bageshree. Can you confirm on the fact that it is in Sriranjani ?
  
  Mux
  
  

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