Topic started by M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on Tue Jan 18 01:03:04 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
hi all, I am Anand from bangalore and a new visitor to the tfm page. I am a great fan of both ARR and IR. I browsed through all the earlier threads on ARR and IR. It seems to me that there are quite a few anti ARRs out here.
Let me tell you something about IRs music. IRs music became popular and sounded different because he tried to bring in a westernization of Carnatic ragas in his songs. Even a dappanguthu was in Lathaangi or sivaranjani. That actually made the difference. Otherwise he is no great MD. One might argue that such a westernization or incorporation of a carnatic raga in a dappanguthu or jazz is something that demands great applause. But IR doesn't deserve that because, if u say u are tuning a song in a particular raagam, you have to bring out the nuances, the laya and bhaava of the raagam in to the song. Just traversing the swaras in the raagam here and there does not mean that u have tuned a song in that raagam. Ilayaraaja has done just that, a mere traversal through the swaras. In many places, there were apaswaras also. ARR has tuned very few songs based on Carnatic ragas but they were classics. For example Mettu podu in Anjali is a beautiful song in Ananda Bhairavi. He has brought out every nuance of the raagam in that song. Minsaara Kanna in padaiyappa is an excellent piece in vasantha. En mel vizhunda mazhai tuliye is again a beautiful piece in kaapi. A real mix of the east and west. That is what u call fusion. Ilayaraaja boasts of having composed songs in rare raagas like chala nattai, kanakangi etc. For example pani vizhum malar vanam in chala nattai is again a pure note traversal. There was no attempt to bring out the nuances in the raaga. So IR knew how to make songs sound good but ARR gives a fine polish to each and every one of his songs. IR composed music for 700 odd films. Hey Ram is his 785th film. Considering 7 songs per movie, he has tuned almost 5500 songs. Huge number indeed but hardly 5% of those songs are listenable others are 100% pure junk. But 99.9% of ARRs songs are listenable and they are also good numbers. What do you say about this?
Regards,
Anand
Responses:
- Old responses
- From: Prakash (@ 193.113.185.165)
on: Wed Mar 22 17:00:17 EST 2000
?
- From: MS (@ )
on: Fri Apr 7 16:59:55 EDT 2000
This session was done privately with srikanth/ srinath and me taking part. Srikanth and srinath are discussing here the IR vs ARR. This discussion was insightful,deep,sane (as my contribution was not much) and more importantly preserved diginity. DFers who read this may want to skip some dry jokes passed by us and read the content alone:
DHOOPAM:
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 14:40:26 EDT 2000
Nethikku romba naalaikku apparum I was listening to ARR's Anjali Anjali. Since the weather was good, I rolled down the window and was playing the music quite loud. Konja nerathukku apparum, I felt very self-conscious, as if people would laugh at me for listening to such junk music :-) and immediately rolled up the window and changed cassettes ! I have never felt this way with IR's music !
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 14:41:58 EDT 2000
the weather was good
rolled down the window
I was listening to ARR's
--- finally, arr sucks.
to tell this why this big para, tell something new.
From:IR (@ columbo.lifeworks.com) on: Fri Apr 7 14:45:32 EDT 2000
I should have rolled your windows and listened too poda poda punnakku Sri - you would have felt proud ::))
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 14:56:40 EDT 2000
ARR's songs are over-glorified jingles. Nice technology, poor music.
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:04:03 EDT 2000
sri, yes we should analyze each raja score, we need towrite how the score is formed and how the chords are placed, then only westerners will read it.
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:04:19 EDT 2000
ennamo ARR songs don't give me the feeling of having listened to complete music. They are attractive and good to listen to once in a while. But only IR's music pumps my adrenaline. There is definitely some magic in IR's music that is missing in ARR's music. ARR's music has character, spirit and quality, but it lacks a certain purpose. IR paata kaetta thaan paatu kaetta maadhiri irukku.
CATALYST:
From:MS (@ 129.252.26.235) on: Fri Apr 7 15:09:55 EDT 2000
To me there is a set of ARR's songs whcih impact me everytime I hear them. I have cassette of 18 such songs - simply wonderful !
I donot know what you are looking for Sri ? It may be that a preconceived notion about a music director will not allow you to appreciate his good songs. It happened to me in case of Vidhyaasaagar. Now I am more open and I appreciate many of his melodies. HE is a really talented MD!
From: Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:11:04 EDT 2000
I know what is the reason behind your sudden appreciation for Vidyasaagar :-) In one word - VIJAY ;-)))
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:12:01 EDT 2000
yes, he is good very artist, I learnt lot from him, i learnt from him lots about drum programming
he as 3 avatars,
1. carnatic music
2, hard core rock/film music
3. Western classical music.
he knows allthe 3 well,
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:13:22 EDT 2000
sri,
why do you say nothing is there is arr's music, shall we analyze a song. ?
From:MS (@ 129.252.26.235) on: Fri Apr 7 15:13:31 EDT 2000
Sri :-)
you are mistaken, grossly ! The very first song of Vidhyaasagar that made me turn my attention towards him is "veNNilaa chanthanak kiNNam" from a amllu movie "azagiya raavaNan". It is only after hearing that song did I try others. Ofcourse Vijay catalyzed :-)
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:15:07 EDT 2000
MS:
Everything of significance in an ARR song is experienced with the very first listening. On the other hand, the more your listen to IR, the more shades you begin to notice. Algorithmic as it may seem, the subtle shifts in expression in IR's songs are unmatched. It is difficult to put it down in words. But every time you listen to an IR song, you experience two different and seemingly contradictory feelings - one is where you feel a validation and reinforcement of the obvious intent of the song and the other is where you find an marginal variation in expression each time you notice a different nuance or instrument.
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:17:15 EDT 2000
OK Srikanth ! Challenge ! Let us pick one song each of ARR and IR which you think can be interchanged and I'll tell you what I like better in IR's "version". If I am convinced that ARR's "version" is equal or better than IR's, I shall readily ad wholeheartedly admit it ! :-)
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:18:09 EDT 2000
Sri, I dont agree,
for me if I hear rajas song
i will be impressed the first only if it too good.
We can guess the chords for the song after hearning 4 bars.
I take a bet in this.
but for arr songs it is not the case, he starts the songs very differently, moves differently....etc
for msv, there are many surpizes, things change a lot in the score, we cannot guess it at all.
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:22:50 EDT 2000
Srikanth:
That is probably because you are visualizing the songs textually. I disagree that AR makes a song more effective by making it sound different or "unguessable". Even if you were to guess every single chord in an IR song accurately, the chord pattern by itself does not make the whole song. Would you have conceived the same counterpoints, the same bass scores, the same instrument combination, the same pauses, the same drum rolls, the same high-hats stroke, the same chord inversions ? There are too many factors in a song and only IR has shown full control over them. ARR's melody is fantastic, no doubt. But he is only concentrating on themoreobvious aspects. That is why I get tired of his songs so easily. I mean, I like them just as much as anybdy else in the beginning, but after some time I being to feel, "This is nothing special".
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:24:00 EDT 2000
Srikanth:
Neego suggest pannungo ! I'll will also try to think of one song like that !
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:25:01 EDT 2000
difference between rajas score and arr
r:
1.Has good counter points,
2.Has good arragements, he composes for different instruments.,
3.Depends too much on the chords,
4.Tune is not so often great. he spoils the tune for the chords, might suite wc not tamil music.,
5.Does not allow the singer to improvise (atleast a little)
so singers just sings what he says so songs lack brigas, they are flat.
more to come...on arr:)))
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:29:36 EDT 2000
arr,
1. try the percussion differently like playing just a bell sound at regular intervals as beat for the entire song.
2. His songs has a wide specturm (check with a specturm analyzer, you will now, rajas song will never be spread, this not a recording tech, we need to place instrument to get this specturm.
3. samples, at times lot.
4. bass parts are the best.uses more fretless.
5. places percussion when required.
6. uses pizzicato chords etc for the songs.
7. best vocal harmony
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:29:49 EDT 2000
I just said it :-) ARR concentrates on the more obvious aspects of a song
1. Melody
2. Rythm
3. Special FX
4. Different Singers
etc.
Even his technically complex compositions seem to use music theory as a stand-alone component rather than a natural occurence in his music. Examples would be 9/10 special chords that Srikanth mentions.
This is not an attempt to belittle ARR's music. My own knowledge of music is like about 1/1,000,000th of ARR's. I am just trying to explain why I don't like ARR's music as much as I like IR's.
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:33:27 EDT 2000
melody wise I dont see much differce between raja and arr, Arr is any day better. raja wins only in the arrangment, that does not codify to call him a genius.
eg:did use the kanamuchi enaDA...see the pizzicato placement, bass placement, drum placement..they are very good,
the solo violin is simple and great.
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:35:40 EDT 2000
Srikanth, please pick one song of each and we can compare. Raja has given lots of melodious songs. It just so happens that a majority of his hits were not songs in which melody played a big role.
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:36:08 EDT 2000
arr is clear in this song, he does not add unwanted stuff,
and finally his recording and mixing is amazing, btw: mixing is also a part of music, it is like "writing" in the word story writing.
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:38:08 EDT 2000
sri, melody wise raja is far behind,
arr is somewhat ok, but suffers at Saranams, and escapes, thanks to good pallavi and some great digital reverbs etc.
(fire shot:msv's tunes are the best , will be the best for another 250 years.)
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:38:49 EDT 2000
Srikanth, please pick one song each of IR and ARR that you think can replace the other and I am confident that I can prove to you why IR's "version" would be the better one.
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:41:11 EDT 2000
how about enAVale...enAVale...
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:41:35 EDT 2000
Srikanth:
I keep repeating - just one song from IR and ARR where the following conditions are met:
1. Same kind of situation
2. Both must be solos or both must be duets
3. Both must be typically indicative of the situation that they are portraying. For example, Porale Ponnuthaayi or Konji Konji would not qualify
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:42:05 EDT 2000
OK Ennavale Ennavale from ARR. What is the matching song from IR ?
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:42:53 EDT 2000
how about mukaBla and AAtaMa...therOtAMa..
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:45:07 EDT 2000
Srikanth:
IMO aatama was not a big a hit for IR as Mukkaala was for ARR. But still, I am confident Aatama was the better song !
By this time his highness MS had vacated the place to be a silent spectator :-)
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:46:34 EDT 2000
Ok, Srikanth let us start with the tune first.
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:47:53 EDT 2000
Ok pallavi tune, definitely Mukaala is more interesting. Just the tune without considering the instrumentation,
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:48:25 EDT 2000
Yes,
Tune wise mukabLa was more catchy.
Technically both are very simple and built in CMinor.
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:49:59 EDT 2000
Wait, that was only for pallavi
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:50:29 EDT 2000
AAtam depends has instrumental interludes with few bad chorus voices,
has a very simple chord progression,
cm, g# cm g#
but mukaba
c-sus g7th c-sus g7th
:)
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:51:07 EDT 2000
Ok, the charanam tune for Mukaala is also slightly better than Aatama, though the difference is not as much as it was for the pallavi
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:51:56 EDT 2000
Do oyu know where both songs are available on the net ?
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:52:40 EDT 2000
pallavi was capture by the start of the song, attAma starts with a calling bell and r8 drum sound,
but mukabla starts very grandly with lots of vocals.
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:52:45 EDT 2000
pallavi was captured by the start of the song, attAma starts with a calling bell and r8 drum sound,
but mukabla starts very grandly with lots of vocals.
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:53:10 EDT 2000
OK, percussion - Aatama beats Mukkaala by far. To being with, Mukaala beats are from a sample, this I am sure of. Aatama beats are original. I cannot give ARR credit where it is not due ! :-)
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:54:24 EDT 2000
the beat for Atama remains the same for the whole of the song, mukabla beat pattern changes per 16 bars.
the tune is saraNam is very very catchy, and a foot tapper.
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:54:28 EDT 2000
Ok tune-wise granted. Mukkaala scores over Aatama !
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:55:56 EDT 2000
Srikanth:
There is no rule saying that the beat has to change continuously for a song to be good ! If that were the case, some of the classics would have to be excluded ! Simple point is Aatama beats are original and catchy and while Mukkaala beats are more innovative, they are not original.
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:56:32 EDT 2000
no, r8 sample library has that beat pre-programmed.
I use this light music programs.
for Mukabala , can you tell me the excat place the sample use, what is the sample, (many tell dr.alban, no this is from alesis, drum machine, dr alban also has this drum machine.
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:57:42 EDT 2000
yes srinath ,I agree, but it is stale to have the dongu toku for the entire song, we can clealy spot it is mechanical beat, there needs to be variation in the percussion which raja lacks a lot. his tabla scores are pretty elementry.
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:58:32 EDT 2000
All I know is that the same beat (a simpler version) is available as Style No. 21 and interlude beats style no.22 on my Yamaha PSR-270 !!!. Also there are some interesting congo rolls in the interludes in Aatama. Don't tell me they are also from R8 sample library !!! :-)
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:59:12 EDT 2000
The Style names are Dance PP1 and Dance PP2. I don't know what that means, but you asked for the details and you have them :-)))
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:59:43 EDT 2000
one big difference in Mukabala and Attama is the second bgm, in Muqabala is it complete OB.,but rajas has some good string section.
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:01:43 EDT 2000
yes attama is programmed using R8 demo sounds.
but for arr he has altered the drum sounds a lot from the original like it will sound different if you just add some effects.
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:02:22 EDT 2000
Srikanth:
The basic point where I disagree is that while IR's beats are standardized, his innovations are more beautiful ! For example, in "Katril Endhan Geetham", the charanam starts off with "Nil endru sonnaal manam..." with a tabla roll. also the beat itself is like that for the entire charanam. I prefer these subtle differences to innovations that jump at you !
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:04:13 EDT 2000
finally, because of the song quality,
mukabala became a super super hit, was copied lots of time in many songs in hindi, tamil, etc etc.
attama did no go well.
one thing arr has not done a song like this again.
but raja has a done a similar songs like this before and later,
From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:05:56 EDT 2000
sri, tabla, roll
have you heard RAgangal 16 from msv, tabla is wonderful in that song. raja cannot even imagine this complication.
also rajas tabla score are very std, any tabla player will play
arr uses tabla just when need and uses them pretty well, eg: in acham acham illai , he places them really well
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:07:49 EDT 2000
there are beats which are composed 100% by raja using drum machine.
same even arr does, though he uses some ready made drum loops , he does not use them just like that,he changes them a lot. he knows some jokers :))) in newtfmpage will scream
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:08:54 EDT 2000
Srikanth:
If ARR repeated mukkaabala kind of song again, it would be like IR repeating Anjali Anjali Anjali. These are one-off songs ! any other song similar to this will sound too much like it and everybody will call it a copy.
I said right at the beginning, Aatama was not as big a hit for IR as Mukkaala was for ARR. So, technically speaking Aaatama and Mukkaala are not interchangeable.
Another thing, you have not even considered the flute pieces and interludes properly ! The song has many other facets which you are overlooking !!!
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:09:00 EDT 2000
have you hear the song...yeye unnai thanee this has aready made drum pattern.
:)
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:09:05 EDT 2000
have you heard the song...yeye unnai thanee this has aready made drum pattern.
:)
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:11:29 EDT 2000
agreed it has good flute interludes,but all this have to coordinate, like I have a huge string section but if my song is rara venu gopabala, it will not be catchy.
the ATTama is dry more mechanical, very flat.
but muQabla is very fresh...
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:14:02 EDT 2000
Srikanth:
Mukkaabala is not by itself a very great tune ! Compared to Aatama it is more interesting avvalavuthaan :-))
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:14:50 EDT 2000
number of instruments,
day by day number of instruments tones used by arr is coming down, he is able to give a wider spectrum with minimal instruments.
sri, frankly , there are good thing in arr scores,
else I will not support him at all.
keep hearing more,
muQabla wins ::)))
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:15:40 EDT 2000
interesting , in what way...explain
atta ma ther ottma... (very flat notes)
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:17:38 EDT 2000
Hey, you did not take two equal songs to being with. I agree Mukkala has more reasons to attract the average listener. But to a more discerning listener there isn't much to choose between either song. If Mukkala tune and beats are good, Aatama's interludes and beats are equally good. Or rather Mukkalabala's beats are better, but Aatama's interludes are better than Muukaabala's tune :-) I will agree to a tie, but definitely Mukkabala is not a clear winner !
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:17:54 EDT 2000
the tune is very traditional, like
starts in cminor, then anupallavi goes to g# then come to g...and ends.
thevam thandavedu has the same chord progression.
in muqabla.
csus,
the anupallavi goes to e-flat,b major
different., not the traditional stuff.
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:19:57 EDT 2000
basically, the reason I took songs is to nail you,
Muqabla is good song, better song than Atama, you need to agree to this :))
the chords progression is different, the start and the interludes are different, what else you want in the song ?
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:20:33 EDT 2000
Srikanth:
I said compared to Aatama's admittedly flat tune, Mukkabala's flat tune is better :-) Tell me what is so special about "Mukkala, Mukkabala, Laila, oh Laila" ? :-)) Equally flat. But it has some saving grace like " Love-ukku kadhala, badhil nee sollu kaadhala" etc. Similarly even charanam starts off quite flat but is picked up at "Bhoogambam vandhal enna, bhoologam vendhaal enna, aagayam rendaaguma....." :-) See I give credit where it is due. Just because 4 out of 8 lines are good, does not mean averages will make the other 4 lines any better :-))))
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:21:39 EDT 2000
probally you would raved about this song, if it had the name Ilayaraja, :)))
Raja was a very traditional musician,
like MSV, Arr is an unconventional musician
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:24:54 EDT 2000
sri,
it is like this to reach a higer floor we need to start with the lower floor, so arr starts of with a simple score then comes in the complication and builds the pace very well,
incase of raja he stops, he does not try any complication follows the traditional path.
(tip to topple me:
rakkamma and Verapandi kotaiyele...you would have won
:)))
old raja fans should hear arr and he is good..period.
:)))
From:Z (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:25:12 EDT 2000
Srikanth:
I am not saying that Mukkala is a bad song. It is more attractive than Aatama, agreed. But it is not a great song by any stretch of imagination. Aatama is not a great song either but it serves its purpose equally. Mukkala has 50% great innovations packed with 50% unimaginative music. Same case with Aatama. It has 50% bland music packed with some great interludes and flute pieces. At best I will agree to a tie. slight advantage for mukkala is that it is a very different song (and because of the suspended chords :-)) So given a choice Mukkala would be chosen over Aatama by 9 out of 10 people. It is an implicit winner, not an outright winner :-)
From:kurumbu (@ 129.252.26.235) on: Fri Apr 7 16:27:06 EDT 2000
so it is a winner ?
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:28:22 EDT 2000
Srikanth:
I am not sure I would have won with Raakamma and Veerapandi :-) I am very doubtful about that !!!
From a listener's point of view, I know that I am not doing justice to ARR's talent because of my incessant criticism. Maybe 3 times out of 10 my criticism might be justified. But to say that Raja has not innovated, to say that he follows a traditional path and that he tries nothing complicated is to deny him credit 10 times out of 10. ARR is good and deserves praise. IR is even better and deserves respect. :-)
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:28:49 EDT 2000
When compared with Aatama, MQ is 1000 times better,
this is true because Muquabla was superhit...arr was new, attama was flop..ir was in peak during this...time
:))
From:srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:30:29 EDT 2000
ARR is good and deserves praise.
IR is even better and deserves respect. :-)
the mistake you make is telling them together,
go going for lunch.
will be back in 20 mins
if you gohome now,have good weekend
:)))
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:30:38 EDT 2000
Srikanth:
I am really surprised that you would think Raakamma is better than Veerapandi kotayile ! Innikku time illa, but next week definitely intha rendu songsayum neengo analyze pannanum enakkaaga ! It will be really interesting to read ! Personally I like VK better :-) Not a gimmick or anything but a true honest statement from my heart !
MS:
Yes Mukkala wins in a photo-finish as far as I am concerned :-)
From:Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Fri Apr 7 16:33:22 EDT 2000
I am also done for the day. Have a nice weekend ! bye !
That is it and hence ended the discussion with..dignity and knowledge..being the winner.
Thx
MS
- From: MS (@ 129.252.26.235) on: Fri Apr 7 17:01:23 EDT 2000
close italics
- From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 17:09:17 EDT 2000
ms, enVambulA matiVedra....:)))
- From: closingIt (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 17:09:51 EDT 2000
/
- From: MS (@ 129.252.26.235) on: Fri Apr 7 17:01:23 EDT 2000
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