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Time for India to stand together

Topic started by Eswar (@ 65.91.152.71) on Wed May 22 20:26:25 EDT 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Dear Friends,

I know that this is not connected to Tamil Film Music. But, I think it is the time again for our nation to be one, against every adversary and every one who thinks evil of our country.

I hope we will all come together as one, bring about every thing that we can do for our country - including, if neccessary - sweat and blood. I know that my friends in this forum will agree with me.

Jai Hind, and Vandemataram,
-Eswar

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Eswar (@ 65.91.137.243) on: Thu May 23 22:27:54 EDT 2002
  
  Aha Bhutto,
  
  "Jingoistic Patriotism"? "Self Styled Patriots Sitting In Posh West"?
  
  What rubbish!
  
  Patriotism is "natural" for anyone who is born in any country. That is why we call our India a country, or is it? There is nothing to be ashamed of to be an Indian, or showing off your love for your country.
  
  Posh west! - Janaab, west is not as posh as you feel. We know what we go through to sustain life here. Or is it like "Grapes that cannot be plucked are sour, so said the fox!"?
  
  As for the problems of India, we are very well aware of it, probably more aware of it than you are. YOu should remember that we migrated to "posh" west after going through very trying times in India. Well, we owe it to India for every fibre of our body was built by the sweat of India's farmers, and the blood of India's jawans. So, like it or not, we will do our best to make sure that those ba****** across the border is fully send to the 72 virgins waiting for them in their heavens.
  
  And as for war, it will happen, since that is the only way left for India - there is no other.
  
  
• From: Bhutto (@ 202.41.117.3) on: Fri May 24 00:27:19 EDT 2002
  
  No, there will be no war, since the present leadership in India is too sensible and pragmatic to take such a step at this stage - but
  the threat of a war will persist - that is the strange irony of the whole thing
  
  
• From: Prabhu (@ 203.199.120.7) on: Fri May 24 03:36:00 EDT 2002
  
  hi guys,
  let not educated people fall suckers to political rascals yet again!
  
  i stay not far from Gujarat. my friends and family living in TN said each family would have donated atleast Rs.1000 after the Gujarat earthquake( Son studying in UKG collected money, neighbors daughter studying in college collected money, Housing society collected money,etc..all usual stuff)
  But to what avail?? The same people who lived off the offerings of benevolent citizens went on a rampaging spree of looting, killing, plundering for the past 3 months. Is it for such people that a few million in India offered their earnings???
  
  In 1999, when the govt was in trouble, they utilised Kargil. When Tehelka came, they escaped by blaming Pakistan. When the govt comes under a cloud for mishandling the Gujarat issue, what do they do?? Press the Pakistan panic button, and hey presto! you are out of trouble!!
  
  I am not out to blame anyone, any institution, party or community. These are real issues that citizens should know. Patriotism is fine, but let us not give in to wolves in sheep's clothing.
  
  
  
• From: Juan Pablo Montoya (@ 194.85.200.36) on: Fri May 24 05:16:06 EDT 2002
  
  While the thought of a quick and decisive war sounds nice, thought should be given as to how feasible it will be to have such a victory. Most in India draw on the success of the Israeli campaigns against its Arab neighbours and Israeli F-16s destroying palestinian terror camps. But What we all forget is Pakistan is not Palestine, or even Syria or Jordan for that matter. If we ever get into a war, its going to be extremely costly economically as well as socially.
  
  No army can stay on high alert forever. That is another point. Our army has been on ready mode for the past 4-5 months in Kashmir borders as well as Rajasthan and Punjab. This will definitely decrease the morale and strength of the army. And We dont have superiority in Air like Israel has. Also, think about it, Indian economy is not funded by US Aid unlike Israel who gets around 5 bln dollars in direct and indirect funding. also we r not guaranteed US support if ever we get into a war with Pakistan. However Bullish we may be about US, its a hard fact to digest that having US support is going to be vital. But Christina Rocca says US has trust in Musharraf still..Can we afford to have more embargoes and sanctions?
  The worst of all possibilities is the nuclear war. Since Pakistan doesnt endorse a no-first-use policy, its become a dangerous deterrent now. Pakistan will use nuclear weapons if situations force so. And What protection do we have against such an attack on one of our major cities? The best our govt. can do is let the people rot and the fools who started this can goto their bunkers.
  So this war rhetoric is something we cant afford and we should admit that we tried to intimidate Pakistan by moving troops to the border and have miserable failed in the process. Also, the timing of this matter raises suspicion again that its more of a political plot than any serious resolve to settle the matter.
  
  
• From: Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.186) on: Fri May 24 07:49:33 EDT 2002
  
  Then what is the solution. Why are we afraid. ?
  
  ALl the points that we talk about like , economic , poverty and development and all applies ti pak. also. they will die before we go on starvation first.
  
  And, saying that govt. is escaping from gujrath by using this war is all BS.
  
  No, body would have thought about the jammu killings. Well , it all started from dec. 13 and IMVP we should have finished pak. by jan 2002 itself.
  There are two ways to cure a malign tumour. One is to go in for a right and prolonged medication. If it does not work, you have to amputate that part to make your life safe. All our effort to peace full solution to kashmir problems seems to prove null. What is left with us is just go out and end this issue once and for all. Let us not link internal issue with issue conserning the very existance of the nation. Let us not play politic and unite to make your motherland safe.
  
  
• From: Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.186) on: Fri May 24 07:52:01 EDT 2002
  
  sorry for several typos.
  
  but read this
  
  >>>Let us not play politic and unite to make your motherland safe
  
  as
  
  Let us not play politics and unite to make our motherland safe
  
  
• From: Eswar (@ 65.91.136.6) on: Fri May 24 08:11:58 EDT 2002
  
  Indians in India argue, meanwhile, OUR country is shaking every other countries knees:
  
  
  Here are some "proofs", from all over the world:
  
  http://www.indian-express.com/full_story.php?content_id=3236
  
  A clip from intelligenceonline.net:
  (A subscription site, so the clip)
  
  ======================================
  India briefs missions on terror camps
  22 May 2002: India has briefed Western
  missions about the fallout of border
  tensions following the massive military
  mobilisation by India and Pakistan and
  has also presented a detailed note on
  Pakistan~s support to cross-border
  terrorism even after the war against terror
  commenced last September.
  
  Director-general of military intelligence
  Lieutenant-General Lohchab made a
  closed-door presentation to 55 military
  attaches at a posh hotel in Delhi last night.
  
  Lohchab gave details of 65 terrorist
  training camps that have come up in the
  last three months in Pakistan-occupied
  Kashmir (PoK) and of others that are
  emerging just across the Line of Control.
  
  A video presentation was also made
  showing activities of dreaded terrorists.
  
  Later, British and American diplomats
  sought the source of the presentation
  apprehending that the Al-Qaeda terror
  network may spread to PoK.
  
  Officials said that Lohchab also showed
  satellite pictures revealing logistics
  support given by the Pakistani army to
  terrorists.
  
  The Pakistan army has deployed its
  transport company in the
  Kotli-Muzzafarabad sector.
  
  Military attaches were also explained that
  the list of instructors in terror training
  camps suggested that they were posted in
  the general administration and operational
  wings of the Pakistan army.
  
  Army officials also displayed
  photographs of instructors and their
  service books.
  
  Officials said that the Indian side had
  clarified that India would await the
  outcome of diplomatic efforts to
  persuade Pakistan to accept the Indian
  demands.
  ======================================
  
  So, guys, who talk about peace, and follow Arundhati Roy in condemning everything Indian, please face facts, or are you afraid of a nuclear attack on you, and that you may die?
  
  Whatever it is, India will win, there is no turning back!
  
  
• From: Juan Pablo Montoya - worried about our Hawks (@ 194.85.200.36) on: Fri May 24 10:31:21 EDT 2002
  
  Its very easy to get carried away with patriotic fervour and in the process, we will lose our pragmatism. Do u think, us fighting a war with Pakistan is going to solve the Kashmir problem? I mean, just i am curious to know. There are only 3 results to any war, if breaks out.
  1. Truce breaks out with international help and we r back to square one.
  2. We occupy significant parts of Pakistan as well as P.o.K permanently.
  3. We n-bomb the sh*t out of Pakistan and reduce it to rubble where no human can survive.
  
  Starting with Scenario 2, DO u seriously think some 250 million Paksitanis are going to sit in their houses while we occupy, wait for us to leave? I dont think So. Instead more terrorism will follow and more lives will be lost or Pak. may choose the fateful n-option.
  
  Scenario 3 is unrealistic but which is what most of us wish to have. It will never happen and even if it did, we can never get away with it. We will be put back in time forever reduced to another afghanistan or north korea.
  
  Scenario 1 is the most plausible if ever war breaks out and where we will eb at the end of it. We will be the bad guys now and we would have managed to help the madrassas enrol more suicide bombers and terrorists. At the end of the day, no better than the present situation.
  
  And moreover, if we r so concerned about Kashmir, why isnt anyone talking about the Chinese Occupied Kashmir. Why is our govt. so silent?. why doesnt Vajpayee give out a statement that Lightning will strike against the Chinese also?
  
  Also,dont take the n-bombs so lightly. They r not simple toys. To tell u the truth, I am afraid of it. I am afraid for both India and Pakistan. God Forbid either of us choose to use it. Actually, unlike conventional weaponry, The intial effect, though tremendously destructive, is not so bad. the long-term effects are what we should be worried of. And the radiation and its effects wont go away when the wat is over, if Vajpayee decides enuf is enuf and they shud go. When we will have mutant generations after us born retarded and crippled with disabilities, then we will cry.. They will curse us then.. But good, most of us wont be here to feel guilty. But, heck its not important, its more important to have our egos bloated up for now. As long as ppl cheer, War is the Way to Go.
  
  
• From: suresh (@ 202.88.155.34) on: Fri May 24 11:03:03 EDT 2002
  
  Eswar, much as it is tempting to join issue with you, I will desist from the kind of sweeping and facile judgements that you seem to throw in your agitated state
  
  I must however tell you a few things that you perhaps cant see from distant Canada
  
  1) If there's a war, the ugly cost of it will be borne by people in the battlefield and in target zones. Not by you, and even me in Chennai which seems like a continent away.
  
  2) When we had LTTE camps in just about every taluk of TN, could Sri Lanka been justified in bombing the hell out of India? Never mind that SL is much too weak to be a threat to us, but do remember that for all the games politicians play, it's innocent people who pay the price
  
  3) If it's human rights and the will of people that we place paramount, then it should apply to all societies just as it does to SL or Tibet or Palestine or East Timor. Selective application of values doesn't wash anymore, much more if it happens to be a III world :( country such as ours.
  
  Finally, there'll never be a war. I'm willing to stick my neck out in predicting this. A cowardly govt. that escorted the terrorists to Kandahar and that still lets a thousand crazed militants to hold the nation to ransom while helplessly chanting 'ISI conspiracy' can't take firm and decisive actions in national interest.
  
  Yashwant Sinha, Jaswant Singh, Advani... all of them have family and commercial interests in the US and other western countries just as Musharraf and his ISI and Generals do. No way they would jeopardise that with a foolhardy venture that can trigger nuclear brinkmanship. The game will stop when the bosses decide enough is enough.
  
  CF, I personally feel the best solution is in bifurcating J & K, retaining Jammu and Ladakh within India. Kashmir must be united with POK into one independent entity that can be administered under some UN-monitored mechanism so that it remains a buffer zone between India and Pak. Maybe, as has been suggested, united Kashmir can decide after 10 or 20 years if they want to remain independent or align with either India and Pakistan. It's my firm belief that 20 such years (of not having to spend on Kashmir) would see India catapult to the league of a developed nation with miraculous advances in education, health, technology and equitable wealth.
  
  

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