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TFMin isai kuyil PSa, SJa, Chithravaa?

Topic started by Shanmugam Murugappan (@ ifmxmenlo.informix.com) on Thu Dec 3 16:32:36 EST 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hi all,

I just surfed thro' the net and happened to see the profile of PS. She was heralded as the "Lata Mangeshkar" of TFM. Does she deserve that crown more than SJ and Chithra?

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: aruvi (@ spc-isp-tor-uas-75-22.sprint.ca) on: Sun Dec 13 15:16:37 EST 1998
  
  Yeah Thomas!
  
  
• From: karthi (@ g183.grainger.uiuc.edu) on: Sun Dec 13 22:07:23 EST 1998
  
  Hi Folks!
  
  I am only but pained to hear that pronunciation of PS is not OK.
  
  I have no idea about her singing malayaalam.
  
  But in Tamil...can you point out a single song which she sang in the 60's or there after, where she's not pronounced a word clearly? I bet you can't!
  
  She's supposed to be the best in pronouncing the lyrics clearly. For your info, PS writes in Tamil when she sings Tamil songs. This was not told by me but the highly revered SPB himself.
  
  Aruvi,
  
  I accept chitra's voice is sweet but it is certainly not clearer than PS. I like chitra's flow when she sings. Evidently, she can sing in high pitch, but she also spoils the song when it's really very high pitched because her voice starts to "screech" or as you can say "keech keech"-nnu irukkum.
  
  PS is the only voice which does not become "keech keech"! Ofcourse, SJ's voice itself is a husky keech, a peculiar one!
  
  Chitra certainly needs accolades because of her rising to popularity in such a short frame but she had her competitors like PS, SJ and VJ on the downswing when she made her debut. Also, TFM was in great need for a new voice at that time when IR brought her in.
  
  "Edhedho" is one her best, I have to agree. But she has to improve her pronunciation in Tamil. Even now, she cannot get to pronounce the zhagara lla in Tamil properly. In some songs, it's too very obvious, only to irritate.
  
  In "Anjali Anjali" while she has excelled in the humming, she's failed I should say when she sings, anjali...anjali in the high pitch.
  
  We talk here about only Tamil Songs. When it comes to that then PS is the best in terms of voice quality, sweetness, ease of singing, clarity of expression and ofcourse, bhaavam!
  
  Ravy, I have not understood what you meant when you said LM cannot be called the PS of the North. Why not? May be you cannot call Detroit, the Madras of America...because Madras will loose utterly. But I feel this should not be an analogy to be had when comparing two artists. The fact that Lata has more listners does not mean she is the best. PS would have had more listeners than Lata if Tamil was more pervasive than Hindi.
  
  I have listened to both. When one excells other in certain respects, when it comes to voice clarity and quality I think PS is the best. You can say LM is the best, that's your opinion, but you should never ever ridicule an artist when you compare her with an other.
  
  I didn't mean to bring out a war here. But I was only voicing my protest to certain usages. Again, lets chat friendly....friends....I'm okay now that I've voiced my thoughts... see you later, bye.
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: aruvi (@ spc-isp-tor-uas-73-11.sprint.ca) on: Sun Dec 13 23:22:36 EST 1998
  
  Karthi
  It has been pointed out in another thread that PS have a pronunciation error. She writes in tamil because she learned it. So has Chitra but she was older than PS when she started singing in tamil. So her own language is probably more comfortable to read. Although I do not know what language she uses. I simply do not understand this thing about high pitched screech. I have not noticed it. Her singing does not seem different from any other voice in high range to me. This thing about pronunciation, has been talked about a lot. Kanchana has pointed out that she does not hear any trouble with her pronunciation of late. Can you give an example of a recent song where the zh is not pronunced as supposed to be. If 'Anjali Anjali' is supposed to be irritating why not 'Uyire Uyire' which also goes really high. That has not bothered anyone. But the song range is similar to 'Anjali'. If she had trouble singing in that high range then it would show when she sings. But in all the stage programs I have seen, there is not a trace of uncomfortness when she goes to those high pitches.
  
  
• From: Thomas (@ nb24ppp98.cac.psu.edu) on: Sun Dec 13 23:25:11 EST 1998
  
  Karthi,
  
  In saying that PS's pronounciation in Malayalam was not the best, I was simply paralleling the argument made about Chithra's Tamil pronounciation. If Chithra has flaws in her Tamil pronounciation, PS has had flaws in her Malayalam pronounciation. That's all I was trying to say. I was not trying to compare the two artists, or put down one over the other
  
  
• From: anandaum (@ 202.185.109.125) on: Wed Dec 16 06:10:48 EST 1998
  
  Well, I think it is not actually a particular singer is good because of their actual talent. They are good according to our standards which is set in our unknown subconcius. So we tend to judge them with whatever measurements which we think can be judged.
  
  Let all of us admit that admiration of a singer will lead to labeling them the best of all. It is just like the first girl that came into our live which we would adore her for nothing throughout our life for no apparent reason and comparing them to the existing one which we would say not as mysteriously as wonderful as the first one. So if we used to one kind of style or voice, our ego will deny anything that tries to outdo our taste. So biasing is unavoidable here.
  
  So, I think the argument who is best should never arise as everybody will be the best for somebody. In this case we can not say that the one which has the most votes is the best nor we set some standards that if someone exels in all points should be or the best.
  
  Worst still is the fact that singing is a very subjective matter. It only can be measured subtly and not comparatively as what we all are trying to do here. Let us not compare using our poor standards for a beatiful thing like songs, music and voice.Let things to be as what it should be and appreciate things as what it is rather than what we think it should be.
  
  
• From: Shanmugam Murugappan (@ 208.236.83.6) on: Wed Dec 16 14:57:57 EST 1998
  
  Anandaum,
  
  As you said, each singer will be best for someone. Our idea for starting the topic and discussing on it was not to put one singer over the other or compare the standards. It was just to discuss about the variety in their songs and in which area each singer excels. As some mentioned, SJ excelled in her expressive voice, Chithra in her sweet voice and PS in clear voice. As you can see from the earlier responses, no singer was put over the other. Each person had responded with a singer's name of his or her choice and gave the reason for that. At the same time, the other singers' abilities were also discussed.
  
  An healthy comparison will help us to know more about Tamil Film Music. As we can see from the responses, more songs and the singers abilities were discussed. All the singers talents were appreciated and we are not comparing songs, music and voice with poor standards. As you can see from the responses of people like Karthi and Srinath and others, you can find that they have done quite a good analysis about the various singers and the songs sung by them and have given their responses.
  
  You can also see that there were no bashing from any side in this particular comparison thread.
  
  
• From: pae (@ global25.citicorp.com) on: Wed Dec 16 15:50:45 EST 1998
  
  Shanmugam Murugappan,
  
  The topic doesnt say TFM-in Isai KuyilGAL. So it becomes unavoidable for DFers to start comparing, bashing, fighting.... etc.
  
  As anandaum rightly puts it, let us avoid topics like this and enjoy the music(;-)
  
  
• From: aruvi (@ spc-isp-tor-uas-71-29.sprint.ca) on: Wed Dec 16 17:02:15 EST 1998
  
  Mr. Ghost
  
  If you believe that comparison is not necessary, then why what happens when music itself is compared with another music. More than half the threads have coparisions. Art itself should be discussed. No one here has used any form of putting down the next person. They have given credit where it is due. So far this thread has not been like one of those IR/ARR thread.
  
  
• From: Shanmugam Murugappan (@ 208.236.83.6) on: Wed Dec 16 19:34:53 EST 1998
  
  pae,
  
  I second what aruvi has said. As I had written in my earlier response, healthy comparison is always good. There is nothing in this thread that has put down one singer or the other. Instead, when we do such comparisons, it brings out the strength (and also weakness) of these singers in the respective areas of singing. As you can see from the responses, there has been no bashing in this thread.
  
  
• From: karthi (@ g185.grainger.uiuc.edu) on: Wed Dec 16 21:44:49 EST 1998
  
  Aruvi,
  
  It was fun to see the responses. There needs to be a correction in your understanding of chitra's pronunciation. I didn't mean 'zha' it is 'zhagara LLLa' i.e., it is periya 'la' if I put it simply, which she has not been able to pronounce so far as I've heard her.
  
  Yes, I would rate 'uyire uyire' as one of chitra's best.
  
  Again, I can never accept PS pronunciation was not clear. It isn't and can never be. I defy whoever it is that posted it.
  
  Well, have you heard "Komaadha Engal Kula Maadha" from 'Saraswathi Sabadham'?
  
  Shan,
  
  PS is the clearest and hence sweetest voice.
  
  
• From: karthi (@ g185.grainger.uiuc.edu) on: Wed Dec 16 21:50:25 EST 1998
  
  Hi anandaum,
  
  I only wish that we all could be like what you said. But we're living in a world where "the survival of the fittest" prevails even in our thoughts and beliefs. It's also that for you to have a debate, you need to compare one with the other and I think it's all fun as long as we bring out only facts. I think facts are things which have to live beyond what we think it is. Like salt is salty, sky is blue....well, this is what atleast I try to achieve when I second PS because I just love her. I also see that I'm justified before I make a statement. And I think I am. It's for you guys to point out if I'm flawed.
  
  
• From: aruvi (@ spc-isp-tor-uas-79-74.sprint.ca) on: Wed Dec 16 22:27:20 EST 1998
  
  Karthi
  
  What a suprise! I was watching 'Saraswathi Sapatham' just today! Of course PS sounded great. But my favorite is the song 'Thaiye thantha pichaiyilae pirantheanamma'. The thing is not all songs of any singer comes out great. I have not heard every single song of any singer so I can only say from what I have been introduced to.
  I still disagree with the pronunciation problem. I have heard SJ sing 'sa' as 'sha' in a a few songs of hers. And again, when I listen to Janaki's old songs, and trust me I do listen to really old songs if I can bear them, it seem as though she was not as comfortable as she is now. So you see, one has to get used to the language. I agree to some extent that Chitra may have had pronunciation errors when she started off but I can't find anything wrong with her pronunciation now. And again, it is the MD's and lyricist's job to correct the singer. So the accusation cannot be put on the singer alone.
  I don't think that PS may have had this problem when she started off because she knew tamil then. But this leaves an impression on people. So many people may believe that she does not have the problem. I cannot say that I have heard her make an error.
  In fact, she was in toronto just a couple of months back and her interview on CTBC was excellent. They showed it live on the net too. I was very pleased with the way she recalled excellent tamil songs of hers when asked and sang it. She still has a steady voice. And her tamil was great. But at times, she seemed at loss for words.
  Anyways, there is no way that all of us can think the same person is great. We all have different tastes. As far as I am concerned, I argue to make something clear. It is not meant to change someone else's preferences.
  They are all great singers and each one of us likes more deeply those that have left a deep impression on us. For some it is SJ, for others it is PS or Chitra or any other singer.
  
  Aruvi
  
  
• From: karthi (@ g185.grainger.uiuc.edu) on: Wed Dec 16 22:58:59 EST 1998
  
  You're right aruvi.
  
  Somehow, I always missed her interviews or TV shows. Just not to be not in-keeping with my "neendanaal" aasai, I met PS once in her home about 4 years ago, with a sister of mine and her friend, I only remember the moment, I could not recall it all, though.
  
  Then, it's not out of the impression (your lines ...this leaves an impression on people...) that I say PS's pronunciation is the best. I have listened to almost all the songs of hers which would be broadcasted over radio in Madras. Ofcourse, there could be many more songs which I've not heard of.
  
  I am not sure if she knew tamil when she started off. And I also don't say that just because she writes in Tamil she could sing clear and better. Not at all. I've heard some of her old songs where she would have pronounced a word or words slightly differently (or wrongly). That's why I said to listen to her songs of the 60's and later. Telugu being her mother tongue she could have as well written in telugu (I think she did when she began, any should when they don't know the language - here, I assume she didn't know Tamil when she began her career, having come from Vijayawada). The reasons for her learning Tamil may be professional. But I also see a lot of commitment in that. Even in those songs where I said she pronounced certain words differently or wrongly, you could make out easily what she sang - I mean the wrong pronunciation, itself. Such was the clarity when she delivered. I've never heard her do 'zha', 'LLa' errors which are very much core to a language like Tamil, and which become immediately obvious.
  
  Infact, I can also name the songs where PS might have sounded, again, wrong, but never unclear. I would readily accept if you could come up with such a song of hers.
  
  When it comes to PS I argue mostly in her favour, trying to make something clear (which you said you do - argue to make something clear) and to prevail certain facts over someone else's preferences. I may be wrong in my intentions, but I don't believe so.
  
  well, aruvi, I think, lets start discussing the songs and music henceforth. Your responses to me are ever welcome whether you refute or concur.
  
  
  

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