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Western & Indian

Topic started by Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on Thu Aug 23 17:21:47 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have seen the following comments a lot of times in this DF.

"the instruments used are western" .... "This song is like "western music" " etc..

I want to know, what is the definition of tamil sounding music and what are tamil instruments? I asked this question to a well know lyricist and he asked me to look up "silapathigaram" for the answer. I dont think he was trying to answer my question.

Among the instruments that have been used in the last 4 decades by tfm MD's I think a majority of instruments were western.

So what is the subtelity that classifies music as "western" and "Indian"? Is it the instruments being used or the carnautic/tamil folk touch the song gets?

for e.g I wud say guitar, violin, flute, drums etc as western instruments and tabala as Indian (although i dunno if its tamilian) ------ to shatter some myths about the western/indian definitions.

so as an educative purpose it would be nice if people gave an account of how much tamilian has tfm been for the past 3-4 decades. and shed some light on what attribute classifies a musical score as tamilian/western.

I am more interested in tamilain than Indian.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.53) on: Wed Sep 5 01:05:13 EDT 2001
  
  Well said KS :)
  
  
• From: eden (@ 210.214.5.244) on: Wed Sep 5 01:25:01 EDT 2001
  
  KS, you also missed out ARR from the list:-))
  
  A supportive point on flute being western or Indian:
  
  `kuzhalinidhu yAzhinidhu enbAr tham mazhalaichchol kEtkAdhavar' -kuRaL (circa AD 1st century) mentions kuzhal (flute) being part of Thamizh culture. At least one variant of flute is very much part of old Thamizh music & culture.
  
  However, since flute also has references in the Bible (Jesus Christ referred to children playing flute in an illustration, again AD 1st century; there are references in Psalms that were penned centuries before), this instrument (or a variant) was popular in the middle east as well.
  
  With similar probable variants in European, Japanese & native Americal culture (I only assume since one of my friends showed an Italian flute which looked much different from ours -you need to blow like nAgaswaram but sounds flute alright), I think this is one single instrument with real global appeal & no east-west issue:-))
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed Sep 5 11:37:13 EDT 2001
  
  KS..I am thinking maybe you are mixing culture with religion/spirituality. Indian culture is very different from Western culture. This shows up in all walks of life, including music. We have a different attitude. For eg. this morning my wife was narrating something about what a co-worker was talking about in the office. This lady was gifted a 'sexy see through dress' by her daughter for her birthday. The 55th birthday. And now this is what I call cultural difference :).
  Have you listened to the hardcore lyrics in RAP and some rock music ? Do all these musicians in the West have religious inclination ? No. Similar thing is happening in our country. We are facing a cultural invasion from the West or some people would say we are getting 'modern' :(.
  Now that we have musicians who are into various music genres of the west. You wouldn't be surprised if you start seeing musicians in India just like in the west (no religious inclination whatsoever). For eg, ARR is appreciative of IR for not doing drugs like rock musicians.
  The last time I was in India and went to this CD store (MusicWorld) there was a long haired DJ playing english songs. I first asked him do you know tamil, he did answer in tamil. Then I asked him why dont you play tamil songs. He gave a vague reply saying if people want I will play it. But then again I asked the saleswomen..and they all said why dont more people like you tell these guys to stop playing these. We are sick of working here listening to these songs. I guess the saleswomen are from a different strata of the society than the consumers there.
  Then I went to the Titan store to buy a watch for my fiance/current wife. All the sales people were talking to me in English. They had a raffle/coupon which you need to fill out to win a grand prize or something. Another guy came to buy a watch and he could not fill it out because it was all in English. I got pissed and asked them why dont you guys have something in tamil (afterall Titan is a TIDCO/Tata company). They said all kinds of people come here and we had to keep things in a common language.
  
  I am relating all these anecdotes just to dramatise the fact that we are surely bowled over by the image of America/Europe portrayed on TV/Internet that we really want to 'be' like them..almost 'ape' them.
  This is one of the reasons I think music is also changing. I am a little concerned here and that is why I mentioned about this to Ehsaan in the other thread. The burgeoning middle-class in India is driving a gulf between the rich and poor. Lack of respect/pride in ones culture does not make for a strong/quality workforce that will build a better country.
  
  Anyways..before somebody thinks I am getting senile..I'll end my ramblings..:)
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Wed Sep 5 12:10:15 EDT 2001
  
  Kiru,
  
  "Have you listened to the hardcore lyrics in RAP and some rock music ? Do all these musicians in the West have religious inclination ? No."
  
  I didn't get this right.Do you mean to say none of these people(hardcore lyrics) have religious inclination?If someone writes lyrics of the order of "Eppadi eppadi" does that mean he is a less religious person?(BTW who wrote those lyrics?)
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.128.128) on: Wed Sep 5 12:40:04 EDT 2001
  
  Trend,
  Don't get him wrong. A "No" to "Do all these..." doesn't mean "none of these...", it means "most of them...". Another point to be noted - "...in the West..."
  
  Neengalum ippidi chinna chinna misunderstandings pannuvangonnu ethurpaarkalai:-(
  
  On a lighter vein:
  misunderstand pannardhae oru trenda porthu indha DFla:)
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Wed Sep 5 12:49:33 EDT 2001
  
  KS,
  "misunderstand pannardhae oru trenda porthu indha DFla:)" I'm not intelligent to understand anything perfectly.:)
  Sorry for the following requote,
  "Have you listened to the hardcore lyrics in RAP and some rock music ? Do all these musicians in the West have religious inclination ? No"
  
  I still don't understand why the two sentences are together if they don't have a cause-effect relationship or if they are two events which can be related.
  
  Ungalukku purinjirukkumnu ninaikkaren. Neengalaavaadhu konjam vilakkungalen?
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed Sep 5 12:55:18 EDT 2001
  
  The 'all' in that sentence refers to the musicians writing lyrics/doing music as in rock/rap.
  Anyways, my point is KS can look forward to seeing musicians like this in India as well soon :(
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Wed Sep 5 12:57:36 EDT 2001
  
  KS,
  
  Even if it means "most of them",how can that be deduced?Is that based on facts,or the way Indians define religion?
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Wed Sep 5 12:59:51 EDT 2001
  
  Kiru,
  "The 'all' in that sentence refers to the musicians writing lyrics/doing music as in rock/rap."
  
  One last question:
  Are you saying that's TRUE?Why or how(if true)?
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.128.128) on: Wed Sep 5 13:22:53 EDT 2001
  
  cosmician,
  :) Actually, I said nothing new. Just a c&p of what our greats’ had said…today’s general trend in music :) (indha vambu thaana vendaandrarthu!!!)
  
  kiru,
  The gift episode was ‘cool’:) And as u said, I’m sure we’ll see many musicians without any kind of devotional/spiritual/religious (playing it safe:)) inclinations.
  
  And I’m not just mixing…I feel for sure that “only” people with such inclinations can become “great in music” in India. That is what will make them “want” to sound more “Indian”.
  
  eden,
  There is a difference between famous and great. Personally, somehow the name u mentioned falls into my famous category and not into great yet:) Just a personal view, hope it will change soon!!
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.128.128) on: Wed Sep 5 13:54:56 EDT 2001
  
  Trend,
  (The one on lighter vein was really on a lighter vein. Situationkku suit aachchunnu sonnen. ungal peru sentenceoda amanjipochu:))
  
  I feel they have a cause-effect relationship which is quiet evident. If you feel otherwise, then pl. explain why most of the rap lyrics and music videos delve on sex most of the time. Or do u feel that one can be devotional/spiritual/religious enough and still pen such lyrics, sound like that (the sensuous sounds they make in the song) and live that lifestyle. How comfortable do you think one will feel watching those on MTV with ones’ family?
  
  At least, as far as TFM/IFM is concerned, I feel it is true. Hence, I asked to name a few greats of last century of TFM/IFM who don’t have such inclinations.
  
  Hope, we’ll not have to watch a movie like Fire, directed by Mani Ratnam with some world-class music by IR or ARR on a day like Aug 15th or Jan 26th preceeded by some great publicity on all channels. And imagine the govt. making such a film tax-free. Adhaedho US kkae poiydalaan permanentaa…:))
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Wed Sep 5 14:22:33 EDT 2001
  
  KS,
  
  "Hope, we’ll not have to watch a movie like Fire, directed by Mani Ratnam with some world-class music by IR or ARR on a day like Aug 15th or Jan 26th preceeded by some great publicity on all channels"
  Now I understand why we are arguing?I seem to think: what is wrong with the above possibility?
  It seems very unconventional.I think one of the true virtues of culture is not condemning other culture even if we don't accept it.
  Why can't we think:Couldn't it be right for someone else?
  
  "Or do u feel that one can be devotional/spiritual/religious enough and still pen such lyrics, sound like that "
  Does that mean you are under the conclusion that none of our lyric writers(Kannadhasan,VM and Vaali)are devotional/spiritual/religious enough ?
  
  I think it's two separate parts of life.No links necessary.But we link it to relate to what society says to make our life easier.
  This applies to music too.
  All IMHO.
  
  
• From: rf (@ 4.54.221.45) on: Wed Sep 5 14:50:16 EDT 2001
  
  Culture of a nation of a society is all in the hands of the woman. The moment they want 'liberation' (meaning of course sexual) we will see India becoming another America. But, i doubt it is possible because of our die-hard spiritual heritage and significant social value of a woman as a mother,wife, sister and then a woman!!! Woman are respected and given every right as a man and we don't have purdah system at the same system the women do not really opt for bikinis on a normal sunny day except at a femina beauty contest..
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Wed Sep 5 15:21:37 EDT 2001
  
  //"Hope, we’ll not have to watch a movie like Fire, directed by Mani Ratnam with some world-class music by IR or ARR on a day like Aug 15th or Jan 26th preceeded by some great publicity on all channels" //
  
  such movies reflect an artificial segment of our culture. I do not believe in such movies of expressions where a desparate attempt is made to convince the international audience that India's culture is in-line with that of america.
  
  fire talks about sexual preferences, which may/maynot be suppressed in india. but the fact is homo sexual tendency does not prominently figure in india. inciting or posing a picture as if it is the latest fad in india was disgusting!
  
  similarly in earth. there is a very desparate attempt on sensationalism and boot licking international audience.
  
  The scene "yeh jo zindagi" where naditha das and that guy end up having sex is very stupid. pre-marital sex is limited in india and that too in 1947-48 in a conservative soceity that existed that day. It was wrong to project an english movie like sequence wher a hero consoling a heroine should end end up having sex with her!
  
  It is this kind of an artificial simulated image of India that I dis agree with both in movies and in music.
  
  KS,
  
  well! I do agree that the MTV culture that is so prevalant nowadays(one which i was/am so addicted to) has spoilt the basic essence of what india seemed to have been following for centuries.
  
  trend,
  
  there are a lot of scenrios that r possible in this world but r not adopted. the mtv culture was alien to india but is now n place, the same sex preferences which is alien to even animals are now common. the way in which this world is going, why not human beings do away with the self imposed cultural barrier of familes and societies and mate around randomly like animals and live in the open.!!!!
  
  the concept of family home is as ald as, and has the same parameters as culture and preferences. where do we draw the line as to what we support and what we dont!
  
  

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