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Everything you always wanted to talk about ARR vs. IR but were afraid..

Topic started by rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on Wed Aug 18 17:12:52 EDT 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Too many posters are using other topics to discuss/slam/comment/praise IR/ARR that I thought we could use this one thread as a catch all for all those posts. Welcome guys!!!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Kooththan (@ dhcp-css-consult-12.redbrick.com) on: Tue Aug 24 19:04:09 EDT 1999
  
  Neenga Raj (of dishum dishum fame, deshaw fame)
  illaya? Yella Raj-um IR fans-a?
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.28.53) on: Tue Aug 24 20:03:18 EDT 1999
  
  The other Raj lost his internet access and so has been silent for a while;))
  
  Srikanth,
  I appreciate your intention in posting the technical novelties that IR brought to TFM and am eagerly waiting for the same. BTW, thanx for bringing everyone back;)), as this forum had really been dull for a while, with only Rex's thread being active.
  
  Shashi,
  Nice to see u here in this thread. Can u pl. explain more on the following:
  
  1. How IR's harmony is better? (if it is not too technical;)) )
  
  2. How do YOU define creativity and how according to u raja's creativity fell in the 90s?
  
  According to me in the 80s if iam "impressed" with a raja song in the first hearing itself then usually on repeated hearing that song would really leave an indelible impact in me. And usually I would catch the tune and interlude music in just a couple of hearings.And co-inciding with your thoughts such songs have been in lesser numbers for me, especially after 1993. I evan began thinking that after symphony, raja had lost interest a bit.
  
  But now angres me now, he is signing a lot of junk films and is giving mediocre music. I have expressed similiar thoughts before elsewhere in this forum.
  
  I have been unable to define creativity from my point of view, except that I consider songs that make an impact on me as being something "special" and different from others. I don't know why such songs make an impact on me, which is similiar to Raj's experience.
  
  one omore thing i find is that raja's interludes are not the same as before. The interlude no longer "goes along" with the song. When I used to hum his older songs, I inadvertently used to hum the interlude music also along with the main tune of the song. Songs like "Paruvame" fall in this category. But now sadly is not the case with his songs. I have been trying to link all of thes observations with some technical details and see if it makes any sense. Maybe srikanth's postings and your explanations would help.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Tue Aug 24 20:12:37 EDT 1999
  
  Shashi,
  I like your posts - informative and educative with good references. I was talking with aruLarasan the other day and mentioned the low priority/lack of melody in WCM. I want to pat myself on my back for concurring with Yehudi Menuhin :-). IR is the bridge here. From Indian to WCM. Melody-to-Harmony. I am happy our country produced somebody like him. I wish we could nurture and promote people like him.
  
  Srikanth,
  I need you to substantiate your argument that IR's music is formula based. (Note, I consider this as a positive thing).
  And BTW, go easy on people who cannot talk technical terms. IRs music gives them so much joy they might be tempted to flatter him !! But dont hold this against them :-)
  
  Kooththan,
  ARR is different from IR but not different from pop music creators in the West. IR is not very different from MSV,SDB,RDB. But unlike anybody in the West.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Tue Aug 24 20:15:27 EDT 1999
  
  Vijay,
  I think Karthik Raja's hand in IRs music is what produces like the one you mention (atleast this is my suspicion. How else can you explain Guru ). Now with IR as MD, you have pure IR and IR-KR.
  
  
• From: Kooththan (@ dhcp-css-consult-12.redbrick.com) on: Tue Aug 24 20:32:47 EDT 1999
  
  Kiru,insult or compliment to ARR ?:-)
  
  
• From: mahapaavi (@ spider-tk073.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Aug 24 21:28:36 EDT 1999
  
  Equation -> Kooththan = SL?
  
  
• From: NOV (@ bkj-cache81.jaring.my) on: Tue Aug 24 22:21:42 EDT 1999
  
  Shashi - Thanks for acknowledging my presence.
  I am sorry I don't have comments as I am flabbergasted with the recent turn of events.
  If I were to comment further, it will have to be at the expense of a particular person, and the last thing I want to do, is to indulge in personal attacks.
  So, I will keep my mouth shut, at least for now.
  
  
• From: karthi (@ 1cust79.tnt1.rantoul.il.da.uu.net) on: Wed Aug 25 01:43:09 EDT 1999
  
  Madhan Sir, edho ennaala mudinjadhu:
  
  I do like O papa lally by IR very much. But have you heard Sonnadhu Needhaana and Nilave Ennidam NerungaadhE? Don't they convey emotions? MSV's strength is that his tunes themselves carried the all needed emotions. In my opinion, a song's back bone is the tune and then come the accompaniments. It's the tune of the song which strikes you in the first place. Even if the interludes are nice a song becomes unnoticed if it has poor tune, in the process, making us even to miss the great interludes if it had them! I would classify most of IR's songs in 80's to belong to the latter category!
  
  Swamiji,
  
  Dappanguthunna enna? Konjam viLakka mudiyumaa? Adhukku edhaavadhu ilakkanam irukkaa, enakku theriyaadhu, serious-aa kekkaren. You say MSV's dappanguthus are pathetic, and you bring this in as something which IR did new to the tfm industry, I could not help but laugh! Can you give a dappaanguthu that can beat "Ennadi Raakkaamma" by MSV?
  
  And someone said MSV's interludes were not catchy! I think that someone listens to songs only for interludes - I can't imagine how! Please let me know.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy2-external.moline1.il.home.com) on: Wed Aug 25 08:46:27 EDT 1999
  
  Karti; Good questions,
  I am also looking for the same TAPANKUTHU!ilakanams...Most of them here have not heard MSV, they come to a conclusion just by hearing IR.
  As you say if we listen to an instrumental album we can look for the interludes alone. Tune is the vital part of a song. MSV is the only Melody king I know in tfm.
  
  
• From: V. Balaji (@ webproxy03qfe0.sbi.com) on: Wed Aug 25 09:50:59 EDT 1999
  
  Digression:
  
  It is sad that some IR fans are not familiar about some wonderful songs of KV.
  1. 'Mama Mama ... ' - Kumudham
  2. 'Elandha Pazham..' - Panama Pasama
  and the list may go on.
  
  These are all excellent Dappanguthu songs, sadly not recognized by some fans in this forum
  
  
  V. Balaji
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Wed Aug 25 14:25:00 EDT 1999
  
  Srikanth,
  Looks like you choose whose question to answer :-)And the criterion you have for this is becoming obvious to me.
  
  
• From: Paamaran (@ adsl-216-103-209-54.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) on: Wed Aug 25 14:26:09 EDT 1999
  
  It's not that excellent Dappanguthu songs are not recognized... Illayaraja made people to speak much about his dappanguthu's hence by giving DG(Dappanguthu) songs a status in TFM.
  
  u could come with some DG numbers from MSV,KV,etc., but IR's DG's are well above those!
  for eg: if u take "annanukku jay kalayanakku jay" in Murattu Kalai - where the BGM(urumi)for the manchu virattu scene itself gives a sense of the real situation - the song following it adds pep to it. similar situation is in "16 Vayathinilae" for the song "Sevanthi poo pootha sinatha". Of the recent hits. Similarly the "Adi Vangona - Kaetela ingae" song in Pathirakalli was a very good hit. Of the recent DG hits it is "Otha roopa tharaen.."
  
  
• From: SM (@ nat01smurugap.sgum.mci.com) on: Wed Aug 25 15:55:11 EDT 1999
  
  Some more popular DGs from IR
  
  1) namma kadai veedhi - Amman Koil Kizhakkaalae
  2) thanni thotti thedi Sindhu Bhairavi
  
  IR made DGs more popular than any other MD.
  
  
• From: Swami (@ proxy2.ericy.com) on: Wed Aug 25 15:57:58 EDT 1999
  
  Ok Mr.Karthi and Mr.Srikanth,
  coming to the queries about 'dappangutthus'(DP). Tell me how many DP's MSV would have scored? May be atmost 10 ?? Among those 10 the ones which come to mind at a flash is "ennadi rakkamma" (Sorry naan sangeetha meedhai kidaiyathu :) ).....nothing else. The reason is as simple as this, it was not his cup of tea. Chumma veembukaaga U can quote about his DP's. But in reality they are pitiable.
  
  Now coming to IR, look at the following numbers,
  
  *adiye manam nilluna (Neengal keetavai)
  *Annathe aadurar (Apoorva Sagotharargal)
  *Aattha aathorama (Payanangal Mudivathilai)
  *Kada veethi (amman koovil kezhakaale)
  *pothuvaaga enmanasu (Murattu Kaalai)
  *Saathu pottu (Devar Magan)
  
  Now I've give U 6 songs. just compare (in DP perspective) with any song MSV would have composed. U could judge who thw einner would. The criteria is not musical masterpiece, but how deeply it penetrated into the mass and its impacts even today.
  
  Most of Deva's songs follow the patterns of the above songs.
  
  I even liked what ARR did in Kaadhala for kadhalikkum pennnin. It was sort if a slow DP with a high base. similarly was KR effort in Kadhala Kadhala.
  
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy1-external.moline1.il.home.com) on: Wed Aug 25 18:36:34 EDT 1999
  
  Swami; Sorry naan sangeetha meedhai kidaiyathu :) --
  
  You need not be a methai to do that, just be a oridinary listener you will know what other mds have done in the past.
  
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ spider-th043.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Aug 25 19:28:37 EDT 1999
  
  Swami,
  MSV's DPs pitiable ? I do not know what/whom to pity. Only reflects the sorry state of the forumers, who have closed their ears to anything non-IR,non-ARR. Have you heard the following ?
  
  Theru paarka vanthirukkum chithirappeNNe
  Naanga puthusa kattikitta jodi thanunga
  Thenna mara thoppukkuLLe paartha gyaabagam
  
  They are all superb numbers and in none of the songs will you notice any compromise in the base melody line, now do not state that melody is not necessary for a DP. If it is there, that too of the quality of 'Yennadi raakkamma' and all the songs I have quoted, that much better, it adds to the song's beauty. Quoting the number of DPs done by MSV is totally irrelevant as songs are composed according to the demands of the movie situation. Please do give up this habit of casting disparaging remarks about other MDs only to project your own idol.
  People who quote Kannadasan as a reason for MSV's achievements/greatness have perceptions that do not extend beyond their own noses.These are merely 'conditioned' listeners who have already started stagnating.
  
  
  
• From: Swami (@ nat135022.ericy.com) on: Wed Aug 25 19:43:01 EDT 1999
  
  Mr.Sriram,
  I think you totally misread and misinterpreted my statements. Please look at what I said,
  The reason is as simple as this, it was not his cup of tea. Chumma veembukaaga U can quote about his DP's. But in reality they are pitiable.
  
  I mentioned that DP was MSV's forte (inspite of your examples of some of MSV's DP's). I don't find anything degratory. I love a lot of his songs; I've said this upteen number of times in this forum, but I'm repeating. I still wonder at the soft violin piece in the song "chittu kuruvi mutham koduthu..." and the song "naalai intha velai....". He's a great man. But again not a DP man :). I can't accept that.
  
  I've been coming to this forum for nearly 2 yrs and one thing I try to maintain is givivig respect to composers (whoever it may be). If you ever had a chance to look and read my previous postings, I would have never made any negative remarks.
  
  Mr.Srikanth "sangeetha madhai" comment was just a matter of humor, please don't take it serious.
  
  

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