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Everything you always wanted to talk about ARR vs. IR but were afraid..

Topic started by rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on Wed Aug 18 17:12:52 EDT 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Too many posters are using other topics to discuss/slam/comment/praise IR/ARR that I thought we could use this one thread as a catch all for all those posts. Welcome guys!!!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Madhan (@ 202.41.117.3) on: Tue Aug 24 13:29:25 EDT 1999
  
  Dear Srikanth and others, if there is one NEW aspect that IR has introduced and also applied so beautifully,effectively and mind blowingly, that is the "EMOTIONAL" element in the tune of the song, the interludes and the BGM of the movie.
  MSV was indeed a great melody maker - but, melody alone cannot be equated to emotional output in a composition - in that respect alone,IR is the undisputed master - just listen to how the violin carries off from the pallavi in the second interlude of "O Paapa Laali" - that is Western classical harmony seamlessly accompanying Indian tabla and Indian melody !! point out one song of MSV which has this property - for sheer emotional strength listen to the songs of EERA VIZHI KAAVIYANGAL - especially the song "Kanavil midhakkum" - show me any song of MSV with that kind of melody plus orchestration giving an emotional edge to the song - remember,MSV had the great Kannadasan's lyrics to give the necessary emotions and also carry his tunes - IR had to work with lesser lyricists, but still was able to bring the emotions solely with his musical genius - IR's music speaks out even without lyrics....
  Right now I am listening to SECRET GARDENS - some of the pieces are very very reminiscent of ARR's BGM from "Dil Se", "Roja" and "Thiruda Thiruda"!!
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy2-external.moline1.il.home.com) on: Tue Aug 24 13:44:43 EDT 1999
  
  Guys,
  I just want to check if raja fans know what raja had done tfm. Till date most of them did not know. Most them kept repeating the same thing. The threads found here for the last few months chased out many knowlegeable people who do not dare to post here as everything went to IR realted verbal war. -- I would like the IRfans to think before posting , over pugachi will bring down his popularity. Thats what happened to this great composer!....people around him did not bother to critize him. They started saying what ever he did was music. This brought down his quality very much.
  
  A friend of mine, a regular df'er some time ago, he has started hating raja. he blamed the over pugazhchi here.
  
  Regarding swamy: the flute and vilon pieces, olden days depended more on flute. eg:amadi ponuku thanga mansu etc. There are great flute based song in past. Please hear them.
  
  Many of here many ask me who am I to tell all these. I also just a fan like you, this is what I feel. Raja music capablity was restricted by his fans. They started accepting craps. If he had been questioned at proper time, we would not have had this thread or for that matter -- Arr.
  
  Shashi I will get back to you this evening. I have a long day sleepy meeting.
  
  I will also list of 10 new things raja did to tfm.
  
  
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed01735.mayo.edu) on: Tue Aug 24 13:51:44 EDT 1999
  
  Hi again
  
  Since the page rolled over and would very much like people to read my posting and comment, I have repasted the 'header' on my posting.
  
  Shashi (@ eed02958.mayo.edu) on: Tue Aug 24 13:00:57 EDT 1999
  
  Thanks
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com) on: Tue Aug 24 13:54:27 EDT 1999
  
  Shashi,
  
  Excellent analysis. Just one more point that I like to add - IR definitely brought in a much higher percent of rural thamizh nadu (maN vaasanai in music). Even if this existed before his time/prime in TFM, almost nobody brought it to the fore front as he did. And yet, he blended it beautifully with contemporary/imported music while still retaining the original flavor.
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Tue Aug 24 14:31:02 EDT 1999
  
  Sashi,
  A well thought out essay.A point to be noted about IR was his ability to fuse those apparently distinct styles of music without being influenced by either form.By this I mean a sense of balance.For example I was discussing "poo maalai vaangivanthal" from Sindhu Bhairavi with my guitar teacher and he was awestruck by the first interlude.It clearly had very strong harmony built in but at the same time it retained the Indian classical touch.
  I might not be able to bring out the 10 most important contributions of IR but he apparently struck a balance between the two forms which has not been done by his predecessors nor by the 90's brigade.
  Also I might want to disagree with you that his creative outputs have diminished in the 90's.On the contrary he has experimented more in the 90's.
  
  
  Anand
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02958.mayo.edu) on: Tue Aug 24 15:22:10 EDT 1999
  
  Thanks rajaG and Anand for your comments.
  rajaG--regarding popularising folk music, if you carefully analyze it is the lyrics that are more folkish than the melody, although there are exceptions like 'Manguyile' from Karakattakaran. To further explain with an example 'Shenbagame' from Yenga Ooru Patukkaran is a wonderful melody but would not qualify as being typically folkish.
  
  Anand--I think we are either defining or measuring creativity differently.
  
  Another well written article about indian classical music is available at http://www.the-hindu.com/folio/fo9811/98110060.htm
  
  Hope this provides some insight into the greatness of OUR music.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com) on: Tue Aug 24 16:04:13 EDT 1999
  
  Shashi,
  
  sOLam vedhakkailEy, amman kOil kezhakkaalEy (Sakalakalaavallavan), machchaana paaththeengaLaa, uchchi vagudeduththu...had naattupura lyrics and melody. vizhiyilEy malarndhadhu from Bhuana oru kELvikkuri is another great example. Contemporary melody and lyrics - however the second interlude music has nattuppura melody and orchestration (ending with violin plucking).
  
  
• From: Kooththan (@ dhcp-css-consult-12.redbrick.com) on: Tue Aug 24 17:36:30 EDT 1999
  
  Nalla Kooththu thaan ponga! MSV drag here, why? How compare 2 diff. composers with 2 diff. situations when they came into profession? MSVhad to break away from tradition by SVV, GR. IR had to break away from MSV-style and therefore chords based composition of melody. ARR ,same situation like IR, but more lateral thinking, good for him. Harmony different from IR, all instrument not follow chords KB plays, but this is also good in a different way. Don't fight please.
  
  
• From: Raj (@ pdxss902.pdx.intel.com) on: Tue Aug 24 17:39:16 EDT 1999
  
  Mr. Srikanth,
  
  Why do u always on stress on talking in musical terms? I really do believe if that's essential for
  appreciating music, 99% of people won't even bother listening to it. I had a tough time trying to get adjusted in States when I came here and during that time, IRs music was so helpful to me. That I believe is a real measure of his impace on people. Please dont say that I could have enjoyed MSV's music even better. Perhaps you would have preferred his music. I have no problem with that. It is individual preference. I dont think people can sit and think for a few minutes about whether the music director has introduced 10 things or not before listening to the music. I feel IR is a genius based on what he has offered me. I dont claim MSV didnt do anything. Even if IR did use all the ground work laid by MSV, what should MSV be credited with everything IR do. Each and everyone of us learn most things from teachers. They give us guidance but later it is left to the innovativeness and creativity of each individual to use that knowledge and become successful. Not all people are smart even though most of us had education. Sly, all people being smart does not necessarily mean their mentors were exceptionally smart. If IR prevailed for so long, do admit he did do something. I cannot talk about any musical thing but the fact that 1000s of people want to listen to his music for comfort speaks for itself.
  And for a fact you know that most of people in this forum are not musically knowledgeable. You do not have to curse everyone each and every time you post that they are not qualified to talk because they cannot talk in terms of music. I am sure that there are several forums on the net where musical proficiency is well received and your knowledge would be of real use. You have claimed that you will list 10 things raja did to TFM. I am eager to read that. That may make me appreciate his music more but will not make me regret that I was a fool to listen to his for 25 years without knowing any of that. To know that there are 10 things you can list and inspite of that you challenged everyone to come up with that list, may speak highly of your musical knowledge but shows your interest in mocking at musical ignorance of most people here. I have always seen you claim
  everyone else is a kenathu thavalai, poonai, etc
  There is not a single thread where you have not mentioned this. Perhaps this is true. But I have never seen you accepting anyone else's comments whole heartedly. I am not saying you must but it is rather odd that you curse others like that. Even if your claims are outrageous at times, you still stick to your views even if the other person genuinely tries to convince you. I do understand that you are entitled to your views but wonder if you have ever thought that yours may not be the ultimate opinion and others may view it differently.
  
  I defintely do not intend that you take any of my comments personally. When I am upset, I do think only of IRs music and he alone comforts me. I have nothing against ARR/MSV or anyone else. I cannot explain why I am comfortable with IR. Your repeated claims in this thread that no IR fan know what IR is capable of musically and that they just appreciate him blindly is an overkill. I dont think the musical ignorance of most IR fans speaks anything about the quality of his music. Very fact that ignorant people like me fall for his music alone is a measure of his success.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy2-external.moline1.il.home.com) on: Tue Aug 24 18:19:37 EDT 1999
  
  Raj;Same old tone in posting thanks for coming back. You have been missing here for quite some time.
  
  There were about 100 threads here everything leading to IR pugazchi --- simply I stayed out for a while, but as you say somethings clams you down, similar something made me angry. I HAD LOT OF THOUGHTS BEFORE DOING SO.
  
  "Everything you always wanted to talk about ARR vs. IR but were afraid.." I justified the heading, I took MSV as an example. Taking ARR would invite more personal attack.
  
  "I dont claim MSV didnt do anything" --
  I agree, you may be like that, but majority of postings here spoke what not aginst most of the singers, mds, directors. Why?
  
  Do you know Arr along with other singers were thrown to lions in the bhavadhari and Nityashree thread, . where did you go at that time.
  All these small issues grew big into me, I started to post in this thread,
  
  "that they just appreciate him blindly is an overkill" -- yes I still say it. Many threads have proved it here.
  
  anyway --- I had you, vijay, srinath, raj, Madan,anand back to argue with me.
  it is only we end up in the fight one to one everytime.
  
  I will list the musical techs raja composed in musical carrier. sure there are plenty. Basically many do not bother to know both the negative and positive side of Raja.
  
  There are non-technical reasons I still like Raja, (a selfish one) he gave a special place to MD in the tfm. He raised the status MD to the level of directors.
  
  I have week long seminar going on, I will try to post musical aspects by this weekend.
  
  
• From: Raj (@ pdxss902.pdx.intel.com) on: Tue Aug 24 18:27:32 EDT 1999
  
  Srikanth,
  
  I think you misunderstood me for other Raj. I regularly read TFM page but post rarely. I guess most of my postings have been directed towards you though. The other Raj who used to post long messages defending IR is missing for quite sometime now.
  
  

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