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Is Rahman Village, Carnatic and Background Musically Challenged?

Topic started by Bhagavathar (@ 209.43.73.97) on Sun Oct 29 01:31:55 EDT 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

A great music director should be known for his/her trick on all trades when it comes to music. But AR Rahman is good only in recording crystal clear music. As far other areas are concerned he had failed miserably. Listen to all his village oriented songs same type of digital music. Even Deva and SAR do better job than him. What about BGM he plays the songs repeatedly. Deva does a better job atleast copying from Titanic or BraveHeart. What happened to songs based out of Raagas there also he lacks knowledge. What about his singing style man. Drs recommend his "Vandemataram" to clear Constibation than bringing out patriotism.

Discuss this fake, self promoting and copying star and remove his masquerade.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Trend (@ 130.108.1.147) on: Mon Oct 30 21:17:33 EST 2000
  
  
  karthik,
  
  I was talking about how people bring up IR's great numbers to refute ARR and I refute again.
  
  I thought you were about to do that.That's why I said we will not get into a infinite loop.
  
  Trend
  
  
• From: Bhagavathar (@ 209.43.57.221) on: Mon Oct 30 22:38:10 EST 2000
  
  So whatever given in the list in the last 8 years Rahman given Carnatic based hits and Village oriented hits u can count with your 10 fingers. Whats there to prove. Even ARR, Deva and SAR gives the Raaga based songs using the same note. That doen't show that they are good with Raagas.
  
  But in "Mari Mari Ninae" song in movie Sindu Bairavi originally composed in different Raaga changed altogether to Sarumathi. This shows IR is knowledgable with Raagas. Even Carnatic singers and fans accept he is a genius.
  
  Whatever ARR getting these days throught cable television IR didn't enjoy it those days but he stayed in top those days. Even now he gives good hits like "Sethu", "Barathi".
  
  He even worked with MSV and GKV to show his respect to the Gurus he worked with.
  
  What is folk music for ARR? electronic drum playing the background and some guy who cannot pronounce tamil. Do you know why Taj Mahal bombed last year its not because of Manoj or Barathi Raja its because of ARR.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: cha cha cha intha pazam pulikum... (@ 63.225.175.138) on: Mon Oct 30 22:48:39 EST 2000
  
  Bhagavathar are you by any chance MKT or a from his era...
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Mon Oct 30 22:52:52 EST 2000
  
  Fan,
  
  Bhagavathar has started quoting IR's songs to undermine ARR's musical abilities.I think we have been thro this before.The pattern has started again.
  
  It just goes on like "perpetual check" in chess producing no result.I'm outta here for now.
  
  Trend
  
  
• From: G. Kuppusamy (@ 156.153.255.250) on: Tue Oct 31 01:49:24 EST 2000
  
  Friends,
  
  First let me take the side of IR Fans who say ARR's Folk songs are not good. Now why I say this is not good? There may be many reasons, personal and musical. I dont want to argue with the personal reasons, futile are they. One musical reason I feel is in the Accent of the songs sung/composed. Generally it is typically rahmanish (Wait...wait I'm not saying it is wrong. I too agree that a song from the composer can & should have his/her typical seal in it). Those who have heard folk songs(either directly or thru pre-rahmaan cine music), especially the accent part, will tend to say like this(rahmaanish).
  
  Just like in English language for a word say 'capability' the pronounciation should be the same whether it is pronounced by a British or Asian or American but the Accent differs from speaker to speaker. So in that aspect the British English speaker will feel differently when he hears the accent of the American/Asian. Same argument goes with folks from rahmaan's harmonium (harmonium?? i just used it to indicate his composition thats all).
  
  You can see it in many songs. eg. take the song "Pachha kili paadum paatu panjumethha..." (quoted by Udhaya). Its a good folk song. No doubt about it. But it is rahmaanish in accent. Listen his typical stress in the word "panjumethha" and many places in the song. Similarly one can point out in "poralae ponnu thaayee" and almost every of his folk songs.
  
  So this may make others to feel that his songs are not giving an folk song appeal. But definitely those songs are of folk nature.
  
  Same can be argued to some extent in his other creations. Thats why it brings out comments like "Drs recommend his 'Vandemataram' to clear Constibation than bringing out patriotism". Its as blatent as many ARR fans saying "I hear only dongu dongu tabala sathham in oflate IR songs". Though I dont like to endorse these two raw comments.
  
  Kuppu
  
  
• From: prakash (@ 195.99.125.202) on: Tue Oct 31 08:18:51 EST 2000
  
  I think the manvaasanai in vairamuthu's lyrics ,to a great extent,salvaged ARR's 'folk music'.take away his lyrics and ARR stands there exposed to his limitations in this genre of music.IR was composing folk music even when VM was nowhere in the picture.
  come on guys,this chap is from village and to claim That BR -IR combination is nowhere near MSV's nos,is,IMO,taking things a bit too far.
  |ARR is from city and he is comfortable doing the urbanish sounding nos.but give him a real folksy situation and he is like a fish out of water.I think it is VM who can be said to have contributed to ARR's moderate success ,if any,in this direction.
  I am not even asking to you to listen to any of IR-BR combination nos-listen to a song called-Naan erikkarai mel irundhu-from chinnathayee.I was working in village Primary health center at that time.whenever I listen to this song the village atmosphere springs so vividly in one's mind.(Is this song available any where on the net?)
  even to claim MSV's ammadi no. is better than IR's no-well this is just musical blashpemy at its worst!I think even MSV will be embarrassed if he is told that.These sort of statements just makes the credentials of those persons making the statement a bit of suspect.
  I remember ,whem VM and ARR were great pals,he made a statement that since ARR is able to compose folk songs although he is from city,appaarently that made him a great composer.taking that argument a bit further,although IR is from village he was good at folk,fusion,carnatic,western classic etc.shouldnt that make him the only complete composer inTFM?
  (why dont we all wind up all these threads and think of starting a web site called 'www.IR vs ARR.com', as it seems whatever is the purpose of any thread it invariably swings to this direction!I think quetion of whether it was the egg or the chicken which came first will have more quick and definitive answer.As to which one of the two is the better composer,of course,it is Raaja who rules supreme!)
  
  
• From: satishv (@ 139.85.161.184) on: Tue Oct 31 09:20:29 EST 2000
  
  PRAKASH
  "kottaiya vittu vettaki pogum sudalamada sami" andha song kuda chinnathayee movie dhane
  can anybody clear my doubt
  is that song available on the net
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Tue Oct 31 10:39:52 EST 2000
  
  Kuppu brought out a very good point - pronounciation. There's another aspect of ARR's music which is the usage/sound of instruments - they are 'modified' to tone down their ethnicity (eg. Alangatti from Thenali). These kind of modifications are done by New Age bands/composers in America because they are bringing alien sounds to their audience. This is also done for novelty reasons. But is ghatam alient to TN audience ?? Well..if thats his style. I cant contest it. So I dont think ARR wants to do authentic folk or carnatic. He does not want to be identified that way. He wants to be identified with 'modernising' the way these songs are made.And fortunately enough for him these techniques sell quite a number of albums for him.
  ARR is part of the new trend - the yuppie trend, epitomised by ManiRatnam, Shankar et. al. I find it difficult to associate folk/carnatic with this.
  Re: BGM and Songs.
  I think to do BGM one needs a good understanding of music and its relatioship with emotions. Is this not a requirement for song making ? Also, why does songs and BGM have to be totally unrelated ? Songs itself or interludes of songs can be used as BGM (something happening while somebody is singing). Isn't this ideal for movies ?
  
  
• From: Karthik (@ 129.188.33.221) on: Tue Oct 31 11:21:35 EST 2000
  
  I think lyrics have a large role to play in the "folkishness" of ARR's songs. I cant put a finger on what folk music is exactly, but I would say Raja's folk songs have that rough, unpolished rustic feel to them that the Rahman songs listed here lack. A sort of under-embellishment .... you can play the tune of most of Raja's folk songs to me, and I will know it is a folk song. But Rahmans folk songs - they always give me the feeling that they have been worked on, that the folkish feel has been forced on us. And combine this with his tendency to make songs that dont appeal only to a certain segment, and you have less than authentic folk. To my (untrained) ears, the most folkish songs from him have been "Nee Kattum Selai" and a couple of songs in Uzhavan. And proof of his limited repertoire in this department is evident in the fact that whenever I sing "Un Aayul regai ellam en uLLangaiyil oduthadi" from "Nee Kattum" I automatically switch over to "Ulagum Sezhikkanum" from "Mari Mazhai peyyatho" ... very similar sounding songs.
  
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Tue Oct 31 12:17:58 EST 2000
  
  Kiru,
  
  Talking abt modification.It is different in case of newage and ARR's approach.What newage musicians do is their aim is to make the music new and alien to the ears because new age fans expect something drastically different.
  
  What ARR does is he introduces the novelty by never sacrificing the traditional feel.He is very much aware of what people would expect.So,the novelty he introduces doesn't make the song alien but makes it more fresh and more pleasing to the ears and the Indian feel is mostly there.
  
  ARR wants to be identified with good music which anyone of most age groups can appreciate.His modernisation doesn't kill any authencity of any genre.We would see this clearly if we keep a open mind instead of having someone's music as the reference to judge ARR's music.
  
  It should be analyzed without any preconceived notions.May be let us try to put down natural ingredients for folk music without refering to any song.Here I need help from people like you who have musical knowledge(mine is very limited).
  
  I don't think BGM and songs are related.Just take the case of IR.His song making productivity(SMP) has decreased but still his BGM is first rate.If they both are related how come his SMP is not what it was but his BGM is still as it was(first-rate).
  
  Karthik,
  
  ARR has a folk tune and keeps working on it.I don't have the feeling the folkish feel has forced up on me.As far as I know his songs appeal to people who are not obsessed with any MD as GOD.
  
  Certain segment of people alone buying his cassettes or Cds wouldn't produce this much amount of revenue for the producer.Which makes me think in retrospect whether that is true with IR.
  
  Abt the two songs,nobody else has mentioned abt the experience.It is your unique experience.I tried singing both the songs as you said.I had to force myself very hard a lot of times to get that.
  Maybe you have better musical knowledge to do that.
  
  Trend
  
  
• From: Karthik (@ 129.188.33.221) on: Tue Oct 31 12:35:11 EST 2000
  
  Trend,
  
  Dont "En Aayul Regai ellam un ullangayil oduthadi" and "En Thangach petha pullai, summ thala thalannu valarndha pulla" sound similar to you?
  
  

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