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Musical Merits &Demerits of IR and ARR [Only for fans, not fanatics!]

Topic started by V (@ 147.129.99.180) on Thu Jul 17 16:26:37 EDT 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

To bring our healthy/unhealthy discussion on music merits and demeits of IRR and ARR out of the Thangar Bacchaan thread I starting this thread so that it would be more appropriate.

I expect people who post here to be fans and not typical fanatics. Expecially the young ARR fans and the "Theevira" Raja fans

Thanks!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: ambleen (@ 203.117.10.18) on: Wed Oct 1 00:23:36 EDT 2003
  
  as for me, i can feel the diff. in sound when i listen to ARR's songs when heard in my Yamaha amp and in my Grand dad's transistor........but who gives a sh*t anyway, the music sucks.
  
  
  
• From: naansense (@ 68.77.8.29) on: Wed Oct 1 00:34:45 EDT 2003
  
  if one has to think of confer doctorate on IR, i think by now he must have over 800 doctorates conservative est. about 7.1 dts, thx, dolby and the likes and the transistor, i think ARR better do something to make the radio interesting. SN/GR/MSV did not think of sound engineering when they composed. if rahman can make a hit song for the radio, i will listen. right now, i am like ambleen and would add a few more stars like this: sh*t laaad of c**ap - that is 3 stars so far, think of it, these days 5 stars are easier to get.
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 203.199.209.101) on: Wed Oct 1 02:43:53 EDT 2003
  
  well now people guage good music based on how it sounds good. this thing is a bad development in our approach to appreciate a music.
  
  just imagine the entire orchestra (be it a solo singer alone or a sophisticated orchestra containing 100 people) is assmbled in a hall and when they are about to play the music the power goes off and hence no mike/sound system is there to help them now. it means the audience would hear the instruments' music in natural way. At such a situation if the music is good only then one can say that, that is a good music.
  
  im not here to say we should not care about the sounding aspect at all. im saying that we should not care ONLY about the sounding aspect.
  
  IR and his predecessors were good at it, may be due to the fact that sound engineering was not that much improved during their time.
  
  Unfortunately ARR's songs are liked more for their sounding aspect than their musical content. For the same reason ARR too has to make sure that songs sound well. Even if it is a carnatic song he (has to) ensure(s) that mridhangam sound distinctly, which is not a necessary otherwise. Ironically, for this same reason(sounds good) ARR is being criticised also.
  
  
• From: Vatsa (@ 160.83.32.14) on: Wed Oct 1 13:48:20 EDT 2003
  
  Hi,
  
  I agree with all you guys all that sounds good need not necessarily mean good music. But I think good music should be complemented with good sound and its an important component but not the only component. By that I mean whatever composer intends to convey should be conveyed and not let down by sound engineers and the composer should make sure it is done. I think IR should not be happy if his music does not sound as he intended (I dont think he will be happy but he compromised in some cases for some reasons). A great thought in mind will be a waste of a thought if it is not conveyed in a proper way. I read an article sometime back by Guitar Prassana how Carnatic music with all its greatness could not appeal to many, because most of our auditoriums have not been equipped with a good sound system. I think a composer's music will be more appealing with good sound than otherwise.
  
  Vatsa
  
  
• From: Anbe sivam (@ 206.102.161.11) on: Wed Oct 1 16:44:38 EDT 2003
  
  Jag,
  
  Thanks for filling the gap.
  
  Vatsa,
  
  I also feel the same way. But it is not composer work to ensure good recording. May be IR should hire good sound engineer for that purpose and do quality assurance.
  
  But, he is not doing that, because he is fed up with Run of the Mill Movies. Any artist will be interested, only if his product is treated in a way to reach maximum praise.(True for ARR also and that's why he is saying that he wants to work with people like MR, shankar only). But IR don't get much of such chances off late.
  
  That showsup in lack of interest in composing also.(Run of the Mill Songs). He once told in frustation, that directors wants never before heard tunes from me, while presenting with the same old situations. They don't think to improve to present never before seen visuals or story etc.
  
  
• From: MusicIsLife (@ 170.146.91.6) on: Wed Oct 1 17:26:06 EDT 2003
  
  I think a composer's music will be more appealing with good sound than otherwise
  
  Vatsa
  It will be only more appealing if the Quality is transferred to the listener. Even if IR delivers the highest quality recording, and we hear it in MONO stereo it is not going to be that gr8.. See the BOYZ listening crowd, i bet it would be Teenagers or City Bred, who have a decent Music System, but if you hear it in the village in a MONO radio, it will be sound otherwise
  
  Ex: Star-Wars the latest edition was filmed in Digital. Though the sounds were gr8 in normal SDDS theatres, the ones that got the best was with the Digital projection, but that takes more money and effort.
  
  I dont know why IR cannot get avenues to make his presentation to use the advancement in technology or is he using the Technology in the wrong way..
  
  May be
  1. IR thinks he will lose the Originality of the music
  2. Still experimenting and taking suggestions from Wrong ppl(in-terms of technology) like KR.
  
  PS: i am not against BOYZ OR ARR, just explaining my opinion..
  
  
• From: Jag (@ 35.9.20.115) on: Wed Oct 1 19:24:04 EDT 2003
  
  MIL,
  The recording facilities used for recording songs for ARR kind of quality are quite expensive. That is one reason that ARR charges exorbitantly and I believe even HJ does it, to cover the recording charges. It would also explain the delay in their albums.
  IR has experimented with these techniques a long time ago (with ARR as programmer, in Punnagai Mannan) and did not pursue them because:
  
  1) It takes a long time to get a song recorded using sync techniques(to include live instruments) in computers.
  2) IR's music is quite complex. If skilled live
  artists have difficulty coping with the complexity, imagine a computer musician's plight. This is the second reason, non-availability of skilled computer musicians who can match his speed.
  3) Third reason, IMO, it does not encourage local musicians and would take away their livelihood. IR alluded to this in an interview long time back. These people get work on a session-by-session basis and if instruments are replaced by keyboards and synthesized percussions, these people will be broke.
  
  And, IMHO an artist of IR's calibre, after having scored a symphony, will not revert to synthesized music and might consider it degrading. He occasionally does mass masala songs, but only to fit the situation.
  
  
• From: V (@ 24.59.96.237) on: Wed Oct 1 19:27:04 EDT 2003
  
  I agree ur take on Boys MIL.
  
  Except that I feel it is "NOT WRONG" to experiment heavily on sound and prsent something that caters ONLY to city-bred teenagers. ARR did exactly that becos Shankar told him that was his audience.
  
  Thats what I like about IR's old-age music. His music is so raw and beautiful without frills, sometimes it is sweeter to listen to it from an "otta" transistor. :)
  
  ARR's experimentation with sound is unparalelled by anyone in India. I hope he does not stop his experimentation and does different stuff like using a sarangi in hip songs etc.
  
  
• From: V (@ 24.59.96.237) on: Wed Oct 1 20:46:47 EDT 2003
  
  There is nothing degrading about synthesized music
  
  Take bands like Deep Forest. They tour the whole world and learn music from different tribes and when they have a theme or idea in mind they fly the tribals to their france studio and record some samples and from then on they use their wizardry in synthesizing raw tribal howls, chants and traditional tribal songs with the use of ambient chords, bass loops, and harmony voice.
  
  Each and every album of Deep Forest is extreeeeeemly complex. I bet nobody can perform or even comprehend technically and take apart one by one the layers of sound, voice, synthesizer loops they use.
  
  It is sheer magic that people like Enigma, Deep Forest acccomplish this. Thjey have such a good command over sounds and that entices people! ARR is like them except that he has the obstacle of catering to the tastes of tamil makkals and also to give songs for situation.
  
  
  Listen to the soundtrack of French Movie LE Prince de Pacifique. The OST was done by Deep Forest which is purely synthesized music. Amazing and haunting!!!!!!!!!!
  
  I never get the haunting feeling from too many Indian composers. Some of ARR's songs are sure haunting. Like the introo titles BGM of Dil Se. Also IR's thendral vanthu theendumbothu is a haunting song. Actually my definition of haunting is weird. It is something that will make u shiver and instinctively make u close ur eues to listen and savor the soothing sleep inducing mellifluous ambience.
  
  
  Synthesized sounds achieve this very effectively. Keyboard chords are extremely soporific in nature and give that effect so well.
  
  
• From: Jag (@ 35.9.20.115) on: Wed Oct 1 21:07:34 EDT 2003
  
  IMHO...synthesized music ..so on.
  
  (someone please correct me if I am wrong )
  Albums like Secret Garden(I haven't heard deep forest) base their music on classical idioms of melody. What ARR does is entirely different from that idiom. He focuses on Pop beats and rythm.
  The haunting feeling you experience in the likes of Yanni(WCM) or Secret Garden(WCM) or Enya (Folk) is, due to the New Age music that they experiment with. ARR does something different from these people, sure he synthesizes sounds, but he likes to make beat based music which is not exactly soft classicals which Yanni or Enya come up with. New age artists don't use loops pre-dominantly and try to come up with their own rythms and sequences. If these people started using commercial loops, no one would give them the same respect which they get now. That is the same point I was making for IR. ARR is just going the path that the electronic pop bands of the 80's had already trodden.
  
  
  To understand the difference between New Age and loops I would suggest the following songs:
  1) Mukkala from Kaadhalan
  2) Oh.baby baby from Kaadhlikku Mariydhai
  3) Thenmerukku from Pavitra
  4) Dosedu Mallelu (telugu) from Sambhu(www.raaga.com)
  
  
  Before giving statements like " I bet nobody can perform or even comprehend technically and take apart one by one the layers of sound, voice, synthesizer loops they use." I would think twice
  :>
  What we know is a drop,
  there are others whose knowledge is an ocean compared to us.
  
  
• From: Dude (@ 12.248.176.154) on: Wed Oct 1 21:09:19 EDT 2003
  
  I agree with those who say that it is important the music must sound good even on a mono radio. But think about this: music for a movie is primarily compose for going along with a movie. i.e. like a side dish. Whose primary audience is people watching it in a theater.
  
  Now tell me why do people prefer to watch a movie in Devi theatre, rather than in Santhi theater?(just examples) Because the movie watching experience is way much better in Devi. Because it has got a very good projection system and excellent acoustics. Audience, even if they are buying just the front row tickets, expect a good movie watching experience. Now if you are watching an excellent movie with amazing stunts/choreography, very good cinematography etc., BUT the sound is going to be in MONO(or just stereo), is that a complete movie watching experience?
  
  There are many theatres in TN where they claim that they have DTS/dolby etc. but make do with just stereo. The audience who used to complain about theatres switching off the A/C after the first half hour are now becoming more savvy and they know which theatre has good sound sytem/screen size etc.
  
  ARR once said in an interview: He was asked as to why he is composing songs using high technology/dolby etc. to compose songs. ARR said that he hoped that at least for this sake theatre owners would improve their sound systems, so that movie watchers have a better experience. Now what is wrong with that thought???
  
  A poor man cannot own a dts/dolby system, but he can afford to pay 20 bucks and go sit in a theatre with dts sorround effect and have a great experience. For the theatre owner it would take, what? 10 housefull shows to buy and install dts sorround system?
  
  

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