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WHAT IS THIS ????

Topic started by NagasubramaniaN (@ fw.baan.nl) on Thu Dec 17 03:07:06 EST 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

hi,
this week KUNGUMAM has one ad. which says this ----------

ISAIGNANI ILAYARAJA ISAIYIL PAADA UNGALUKKU ORU VAAYPPU
ONRALLA IRANDALLA 700 KUNGUMAM VAASAKARKALUKKU !
VIVARAM ADUTHTHA ITHAZIL

Ennayyaa ithu ?? onnum puriyalai !
NagasubramaniaN

---

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Swami (@ wp1.ericy.com) on: Mon Dec 21 14:08:28 EST 1998
  
  IR's Music can be predicted. I really don't know what this statement means. Is it due to the fact that IR's tunes have been is written into our ROM memory or something else??
  
  I'm with you Mr/Ms(?). Ratna on your final addendum.
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02958.mayo.edu) on: Mon Dec 21 14:36:52 EST 1998
  
  Dear Srinath
  
  Regarding your comment about ARR being more predictable and saying "Aanh, inga oru drum roll potta nalla irukkum....etc to describe his theoritical way of thinking is not entirely incorrect. I would agree that ARR tries hard--IN FACT VERY HARD AT TIMES (and sometimes goes over the edge) to be different. You have talked about a fascinating truth i.e 'You can be so very unpredictable that this very nature of yours is predictable'!! Offcourse ARR has also done very mediocre stuff and I did mention about his DSKR is definitely below his standards. But how can a true music lover discount the amazing use of 'Malayalam vocals' in Jiyajale/Nenjinile song. Do you think this was predictable? And even if you were expecting the unexpected, isn't it still mind boggling to see how masterly he has integrated this piece after the first few lines! The down side of this kind of trying hard to be creative is going over the edge and comming up with an awfull effect at times. But that is the price you pay for being creative and trying out new things.
  
  
• From: Mukund (@ sdwwwgw01.sd.nmp.nokia.com) on: Mon Dec 21 15:49:18 EST 1998
  
  Hi Srikanth,
  
  My intent was not to bring up a negative portrayal of you !. Like Srinath, I also thought this would not a wise thing to talk about. But I wanted to pass along my feedback only when Shashi came to explain things. All I am saying is about the feelings I get and about the way you express.
  
  My point is ,in your dictionary there is no place for an unbiased music listener like me! You are always talking as if all IR fans in this forum are HCIRF. That hurts me and that is why I voiced my feelings.!!
  
  Shashi,
  I for one, have always felt Nenjinile was amazing. - One of the few songs of ARR which brings exhilaration. But your feelings are what I feel as regards a song like Manakkum Sandaname
  in Dharma.
  
  Even though it may be predictable it is an out of the world experience for me listening to it. Now this is my opinion and others would not have any right to brand an HCIRF right ??
  
  
• From: Ratna (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Mon Dec 21 16:08:17 EST 1998
  
  The point is, to be considered neutral a person should talk in the same vein about IR or ARR (no this is not Oxford' defn. it's mine:-))). When someone criticizes ARR's Vande Mataram and calls it a gimmick, if you defend ARR then that is your perogative. But then if IR does a similar thing and the same person who defended ARR calls it a gimmick, then whither neutrality. After that, you are also part of the "kuzhai adi sandai" ... no better than anybody out here. You aint neutral anymore buddy, you are just an average IR bashing frustrated HCARRF. Does'nt matter if elsewhere you praise IR's music. Your neutrality is non existent in this forum now
  
  
  Concerned
  
  Ratna
  
  
• From: Krishna (@ mailserver01.sb.com) on: Mon Dec 21 17:46:45 EST 1998
  
  In this demonstration of patching up things, there are once gain comments made here that IR's songs of 98 were not up to his standards. Once gain, that might be the opinion of an individual or many individuals as they have their right to state so.
  
  I want to register my admiration of Raja's songs of 98 which to me are fantastic and still uunmatched by his peers. Just to state a few, Alamarthu Kuyile, Kadha Pola, Edho Edho, Ilaya nilave, en kanavinai kel nanba, naan vakapattu, the songs from kizhakum merkum, kavalai padathe sagdhara, poonthottam and dharma...I just find these great.
  
  To my fellow IR fans who feel the same, join in on the appreciation!
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy1.dpn.deere.com) on: Mon Dec 21 17:50:46 EST 1998
  
  Mukund :
  I am sorry if I have bashed you, might be due to my over enthu.
  
  Lets us talk music:
  
  Manakum Sandame : most of the chord patterns and thier placement in this song are just similar to our good old "mangkuyele pongkuyele",
  
  This is what Shashi and me calls it as theoritical approach. If a song is composed in Eg: Aminor scale, Raja tends to move by Western theory to Dm|g| and he songs phrases are relative and by tamil tradition he goes to Amajor (MSV used to do this - Ennadi Rakkamma is a good example of it). Though the song sounds good,it fails to impress the mass because Raja has done this score long time ago.
  
  In Raja's score is more western classical oriented, there are less Brigas, there are more stackatos - to get more brigas or slurr - Raja should start composing for pre-writen lyrics. By doing this Raja can turn the table in just couple of songs. If he starts composing using his harmonioun/keyboards - instead of writing scores - he can bring out many great brilliant scores.
  
  Frankly : Musically ARR is nowhere near Raja,
  But his attempts on trying new things and to be different he just beats Raja in the Race.
  As Srinath says I have argued on bass scores, but if you really see Raja's bass parts they are really awesome, but still ARR survies in giving totally new bass parts, infact these parts a relativly simple to play.
  Simply to play guruvayur appa opening piano piece or the Thenmadurai vaigai nathi piece I have spent considerable amount to time to learn them, but to learn ARR's piece it takes me few minutes.
  They are easy and unique (very important).
  This easyness does not reduce the quality of the score. As a musician I like this very much.
  
  Current Raja has to come out of this myth or jinx with something new, I still belive he as many Rabbits to take out from his cap.
  
  Regards
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: swami (@ wp1.ericy.com) on: Mon Dec 21 18:40:52 EST 1998
  
  I'm really surprised Mr. Srikanth. Are u the guy who is really bashing at IR......:) :(
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02976.mayo.edu) on: Mon Dec 21 19:13:17 EST 1998
  
  Hello again
  
  Its good to see Srikanth put forth his points in a level headed fashion.
  
  I would want to add to the comment by Srikanth about 'Mannakum sandaname' having similar chord patterns with 'Manguyile...'; infact one another song 'Aalamaram Melavarum...' in Senthooram by Bhavatharini/Arunmozhi is again very similar to Manguyile... Although all these are slightly different in their outside appearance in reality their skeleton seems to be the same. But people can argue saying that even a slight shift in appearance is all that is required to consider a song as new and creative and I cannot argue against that. I guess it gets down to the perspective with which you look and evaluate creativity.
  
  Secondly, I have repeated it many times in the "Raja's theoritical approach" topic, but will once again repeat that if Raja composed to prewritten lyrics he will meet more challenges and will definitely be more creative (he has the capability--no doubt about it). This is exactly what Srikanth is saying too (in the part about brighas).
  
  I also want to talk about an example to show that not only complex pieces should be called creative, sometimes very simple yet catchy pieces which have never been thought or conceived in the manner potrayed by an MD should be considered equally creative. In fact I would argue that composing a simple, catchy yet creative piece is far more difficult that a complex, creative piece (some people would dispute that). In the song "PeNNalla PeNNalla rojapoo..." ARR does something very simple, yet brilliant in my view. The majority of the Pallavi is played with G3, however in the lines "chithirai meni thaazampoo, selai aaNiyum jathipoo, sitridai meedhu vaazhaipoo, jolikum..." he changes to G2 and uses the same metering as the previous lines but with an altogether unexpected, yet wonderful way and gradually takes us back to the G3 with the opening lines.
  
  Now has this mixing G3 & G2 something new? No, every MD has tried it in the past so as to almost exhaust the ways in which somebody could use this combination. Yet, ARR almost delivers 'from the blue' a usage which nobody has ever listened to before.
  
  Again please remember that I am not trying to compare ARR to Raja or any such thing. Raja has done many a brilliant pieces especially in his early years. But this does not in any way decrease the way I evaluate this particular piece of ARR I have detailed above. I would say hats off to ARR for coming up with such a wonderful thought.
  
  
  
• From: vijay (@ l-1d29-09.engr.sc.edu) on: Mon Dec 21 19:59:01 EST 1998
  
  of all the recent postings in this thread(to which i have been a 'silent observer') i like the last 2 postings by shashi and srikanth. i would like to see more postings like this from u guys.
  even i felt the same after listening to 'manakkum sandhaname'. iam with those HCIRF who feel that raja has been sounding dull of late. my roomie, murali sankar who is a regular here does not even bother to listen to IR's new songs.
  
  i felt the similiarity in another song 'otha roopaikku' from annan. IR had definitely the song 'aatama therottama' in the back of his mind, IMO, when he composed this song.
  
  yet another song is the much popular 'otha roopayum thaaren' from the film naatupura paatu. this song sounds a bit similiar to that of the 'ennadi muniyaama' song of yesteryears atleast in the first few lines.
  
  but of couse the same tune keeps repeating throughout the entire song.
  
  iam perplexed as to why raja cannot come up with new folk-based songs. after all he started off being primarily a folk musician.
  
  on the positive side i have been impressed with raja's song supposedly set in Ahirbhairavi 'iniya malargal' from poonthottam. the song is melodious.
  'ilavenirkaala panjami' from MVU is decent.
  
  watch out for this pongal release 'housefull' *ing paarthipan, a thriller. the BGM is by raja and supposed to be good.
  
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ 167-242-254.ipt.aol.com) on: Mon Dec 21 20:06:23 EST 1998
  
  Shashi:
  Correct me if I am wrong. It has been a long time since I have heard "Pennalla, Pennalla...". Of what I remember, ARR uses a flute behind the lines that you have mentioned. I am unable to recollect the flute piece exactly, but I think it runs somewhat independent of the tune and IMO that is what provides this uniqueness for this song. Apart from that, as you mentioned, the shift is pretty conventional and has been used by practically every MD. Doesn't Prabhu sing this song sitting in a bullock cart ? :) Let us ignore the big picture for a while. Yes, ARR did provide us with some exquisite touches of magic. Just as Srikanth wishes that IR try something different, I wish ARR would try something more conventional - if only to rid himself of the 'gimmcks' tag. See, ultimately, Srikanth, Shashi and others expect something from IR which they feel is not forthcoming. Similarly, we expect something from ARR which seems to be missing. There is no question of comparision here. It is only a question of performance. Strictly speaking, if we were to weigh the intrinsic knowledge of music in each MD, I am sure we all would agree on the outcome. But when it comes to performance, yes, it is possible for IR to fall short of the expectations of some of his fans and in that sense ARR's output betters IR's output. As for myself, I am so drunk on IR's 80s music that it will be another 10 years before, if at all, I sober up and start listening to others :)) Am I missing out on anything meanwhile ? I think not ! Because I still keep an open ear to the occasional Roja/Thiruda Thiruda/Gentleman/Uzhavan that come along once in a blue moon :)
  
  
• From: Mukund (@ sdwwwgw01.sd.nmp.nokia.com) on: Mon Dec 21 21:37:50 EST 1998
  
  Hi guys,
  
  Srikanth and Shashi,
  
  Nice to see your responses getting to the point - This is good. Srikanth, I can understand your point about Manakkum Sandhaname - about this being just a shift in scales - In fact I can even see that its sandham is speedened version of Manguyile's .
  
  But still, like I told you in one of the earlier posts - I like the starting piece where he starts it with a piece of italian music and also the percussion when the anupallavi starts and the fast paced piece in the middle of song. These apart, the fact is I love the song.
  
  Beleive it or not the same song left me singing at the top of my voice while driving the car completely absorbed into the song. The orchestration was absorbing.
  
  Yes the structure may be the same. But probably I have not gotten bored with the structure as much as you guys do.
  
  In fact even vaanathu thaaragaiyo is in Mohanam. And we know IR has given 1000's in Mohanam. Because of that does it mean this song is not good. ??
  
  All the similarities you guys have been saying I have felt these too, the moment I listened to these songs. But I still get absorbed in those songs, I don't know why. Maybe he masks it very well with the surrounding orchestration.
  
  Like someone said, I love - Edho Edho, Nandavana kuyile, Iniya Malargal, Meetatha, Vaanathu tharagaiyo, Ponnin Thiruvona, Manasa Killi (from the Maalayin Manjal part onwards as much as Sandhosha Kanneere and Nenjinile. In fact don't you guys love - Vaanathi adum - atha azhaama ennaala ketka mudiyaadhu.
  
  But I also felt he can compose for pre-written lyrics.
  
  All said and done - I feel as far as predictability is concerned ARR is much more easily predictable to me than IR.
  Mukund
  
  
  
  

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