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Poetry vs Lyrics

Topic started by Bhoori (@ synvpn.synplicity.com) on Tue Feb 23 21:55:02 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Is Kannadasan a poet or a lyricist ? Indha Katru Veliyidai Kannamma - is this a poem because the author intended it to be poetry and not a lyric ? How different is it in quality from, say, Singarak Kanne Un Thenoorum Sevvayal ?

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Mon Mar 1 22:24:00 EST 1999
  
  rameshb: BTW, vaazhaimeenu kaalu eppadi irukkum??!!!!!
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ spider-tf071.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Mar 1 22:55:19 EST 1999
  
  BB,
  naan oru vegetarian! irunthAlum neenga entha meena(va)i kEtkureenga???!!!
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ spider-tq043.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Mar 2 01:06:51 EST 1999
  
  My notion on 'poem vs lyrics',
  1. A poem is a symmetrically arranged set of words characterized by regular recurrence in a stanza following a rhythmic pattern to fit to some beat(s) in music. It should be pre-written to create a melody on a given scale without raising to any level of modification.
  
  2. A lyric is a free form verse not necessarily following a systematic pattern or recurrence and allows flexibity to fit any rhythm or tune and provides a greater scope for creativity in melody or tune making.
  
  Let me take an example to illustrate a poem first. In the song 'aayiram nilavE vaa',if we closely study the four charanams , we can see a symmetrical array of words , rhythmic, and following the same beat cycle. One can easily correlate the rhythm or rhyming between the first lines of 4 charanams
  "nalliravu thunaiirukka nAmiruvar thaniyirukka"
  "mannavanin thOLirandai mangaienthan kaithazhuva"
  "allimalar mEniyilE aadaiyena naanirukka"
  "pogaienum neermagaLum pooVadai poothirunthaL"
  and so are the other lines.
  The first two lines of the charanam get repeated twice with a little tweak in its melody , probably to characterize for 'neraval' part of charanam. In essence the beats per cycle of all the four charanams are same from a theorical perspective. But there is some subtle creativity that features in the charanam 3 and 4 where the melody itself is tweaked even between charanams (to avoid the boredom of all 4 charanams having the same melody), but still all the four stanzas maintain the symmetrical recurrence in such manner to help have the same beats per cycle (approx. 50sec each). If the pre-written lyrics were not having a regular recurrence or symmetry , it would force the MD to ask for a change in lyrics to suit the tune. It does not seem to be the case here! Great work by KVM and kannadasan. Excellent rendering by SPB and PS. Good example of a poem!
  
  aayiram nilavae vaa oaraayiram nilavae vaa
  idhazhoadu suvai saera pudhup paadal onru paadap paada (aayiram
  
  nalliravu thunaiyirukka naamiruvar thaniyirukka
  naanamenna bhaavamenna nadaithalarndhu poavadhenna
  nalliravu thunaiyirukka naamiruvar thaniyirukka
  naanamenna bhaavamenna nadaithalarndhu poavadhenna
  illai urakkam orae manam ennaasai paaraayoa (2)
  un uyirilae ennai ezhudha ponmaeni thaaraayoa (aayiram
  
  mannavanin thoalirandai mangai endhan kai thazhuva
  kaar kuzhalum paay virikkum kan sivandhu vaay velukkum
  mannavanin thoalirandai mangai endhan kai thazhuva
  kaar kuzhalum paay virikkum kan sivandhu vaay velukkum
  indha mayakkam ezhil mugam muththaaga vaerkkaadhoa (2)
  andha ninaivil vandhu vizhundhaen koththaana poovaaga (aayiram
  
  alli malar maeniyilae aadai ena naan irukka
  kalla vizhip paarvaiyilae kaanum inbam koadi pera
  alli malar maeniyilae aadai ena naan irukka
  kalla vizhip paarvaiyilae kaanum inbam koadi pera
  chinna idaiyil malar idhazh pattaalum noagaadhoa (2)
  inbam idhuvoa innum edhuvoa thandhaalum aagaadhoa (aayiram
  
  poiygai enum neermagalum poovaadai poarththirundhaal
  thenral enum kaadhalanin kai vilakka vaerththu ninraal
  poiygai enum neermagalum poovaadai poarththirundhaal
  thenral enum kaadhalanin kai vilakka vaerththu ninraal
  enna thudippoa aval nilai nee unara maattaayoa
  andha nilaiyil andha sugaththai naan unarak kaattaayoa (aayiram
  
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Tue Mar 2 01:51:44 EST 1999
  
  rameshb: 1000 nilave vaa is by vaali, i think.
  
  
• From: nakkeeran (@ 1cust9.tnt3.sfo1.da.uu.net) on: Tue Mar 2 02:22:20 EST 1999
  
  bb: NO, it's by pulamaipithan.
  
  
• From: Sun aka sooriyan (@ 192.149.1.168) on: Tue Mar 2 16:30:25 EST 1999
  
  Rameshb, found symmetry in 1000 nilavE vaa.
  The complete opposite can be found in
  oru raajaa raaNiyidam, sivantha maN, kaNNadhaasan.
  
  The charaNams are:
  1. senniRaththu poo charamO mai exuthum chiththiraththu
  2. Odam ponnOdam ithu unnOdum ennOdum Odum
  3. naaLoru mEni pozuthoru vaNNam I Love You
  4. veLLiya mEgam thuLLi ezunthu aLLi vazhangum
  5. intha poo meththai paniyitta
  
  with an interlude about ALPS malaiyin sikaraththil!
  
  Forget symmetry, I dont even find similarity in these charaNam lyrics. To my untrained ears even the music seems to shift tune and thaaLam at every charaNam. Then what was it that tied the whole song together? I liked it so much I could remember snatches of it for 20 years without ever hearing it once. And one look at the lyric page of TFM the whole song comes back to me.
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ spider-tn071.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Mar 3 09:01:57 EST 1999
  
  Sun,
  sivanda man is a musical bonanza from MSV. The lyrics though may have been pre-written to start with, were of free-form style and allowed greater
  flexibility in creations of melodies. The songs pattaththu raani, orurAjA rAniyidam, sollavO all into this category. But the charanams of 'oru nAlilE' and 'pArvai yuvarAni' have some symmetry in them. I have not had a close observation in terms of beats per cycle, but they seem to qualify for being classified as poems. It is that lilting tune, haunting melody and the incredible piece of creativity that makes you remember the songs.
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Wed Mar 3 11:01:06 EST 1999
  
  Rameshbb,
  
  I simply loved your definition of MUNDHANAI :-). Enagaeyo poyinteenga Sir!! (Naan textile engg ellam illai. Computers and Mgmt line)
  
  I dont agree with your distinctions between poem and lyric. Neenga solra difference is actually the difference between "marabu kavidhai" and "pudhu kavidhai". In marabu-kavithai, rhyming is necessary, pudhu-kavidhai is free-form. A lot of poems you find in magazines are all pudhu kavidhais. For example :
  
  Mazhai -
  Varathachani kaeta Bhoomi-ku
  Vaanam azhudha seedhanam
  
  is a pudhu kavidhai. All your examples are all examples of marabu-kavidhai. Both fall under "poems"!
  
  The word lyric is associated with a "song" and "music". A poem need not necessarily be associated with a "song" and "music".
  
  lyric is a "paatu" - it needs to be sung
  A poem is a kavidhai - it can be sung or it can just be read!
  
  chandy
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Wed Mar 3 13:18:04 EST 1999
  
  Chandy!,
  you are back after break for couple of days. weekend hangover?. What i have explained is purely out from the gray matter without any reference to books. If you take any of your 'marabu kavithai'(i am baffled by this term!), it should exactly fit to a given scale for creating a melody(tune) without much alteration. Whereas if you take a pre-written 'pudhu kavidhai' (any of these new wave kavingan's pEthals and pithatRals), it would be difficult to bring it into a melody without any changes. It can not always be sung to a tune without modifications. If you take a poem (or your marabu kavithai), you can sing to your own creative tune without modifications. So i am still not inclined to accept that 'puthu kavithais' are qualified to be called as poems . These new-wave puthu kavithais many a times don't have any structure, pattern or even rhyming characteristics, and sometimes they are just a big paragraph of some funny thoughts. Do you want to classify these pEthals as poems? I think we have degenerated ourselves into accepting these as poems or kavithais by giving it a new class 'puthu-'. I think one should have a clear demarcation between the two in order to understand the beauty of a poetic verse against that of a lyrical verse. I agree with you when you have said ' a lyric should be intoning'. Anyway i am not an authorized preacher of this crotchet to make my arguments sell. It may sound kinda whimsical, but i only presented it as my notion and not as a hypothesis though i gave some illustrative examples. I am not going to beg my question on this one. You may eloberate your cogitated thought process and we can see if we can converge somewhere.
  
  Enna lyrics thread-la yArayumE kAnam? (ungaLayum sErthu). Have i defiled the sanctity of that thread ?;-))
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Wed Mar 3 13:50:57 EST 1999
  
  Rameshb,
  
  I was out of Boston, so could scream here :)
  
  ungalai pathu ellarum bayapadaranga-nu ninaikaren. that explains why this thread is silent :-)
  
  Pudhu kavidhais are good too. they cannot be altogether dismissed as "pethal" and "pidhatral". for example, that "mazhai" pudhu kavidhai was cute (naan ezhudhinadhu! hehehe).. but i do agree that in the name of pudhu kavidhai, a lot of trash is being generated - structureless, soulless, meaningless string of words! BUT DO NOT DISMISS ALL PUDHU KAVIDHAI AS MEANINGLESS PIECES OF JUNK!
  
  If you read Vaali's ramayanam in Ananda Vikatan, its a wonderful kavidhai - good mix of marabhu kavidhai as well as pudhu kavidhai.
  
  Lyrics are meant to be SUNG.. A poem may or may not be made into a tune.. thats the key distinction here. I agree that marabhu kavidhais are more amenable to singing than the pudhu kavidhais.. So, marabhu kavidhais get qualified to be called as "lyrics", but not all pudhu kavidhai's could be called so!
  
  chandy
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Wed Mar 3 15:56:50 EST 1999
  
  Chandy,
  enna sollareeeeeenga! ennai pArthu bayamA? ethukku sir? adiyEn ethAvathu abathravagamAga ezhuthiyirunthA manniththu vidugaL ?;-)) mazhai kavithai enakkum theriyum! VM ippothu viyarvaiyilirunthu mazhaikku thAvi vittAr! BTW, i can sense your attempt to converge on opinion here. I too agree with your statement that lyrics are meant to be sung. BTW, what about the song 'vAdi en kappak kizhanghE , enga akkA peththa mukkA thuttE pAdAtha vAya thoRanthu ....' is it marabu kavithai or puthu kavithai?!;-))
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Wed Mar 3 17:35:57 EST 1999
  
  I didn't step in here because this thread was headed in the direction of Bharathi or Kannadhaasan debate. Looks like the chaos is over and calm prevails. I've enjoyed much that has been written so far, this is intriguing trying to distinguish lyrics and poetry.
  Let me add another facet to the distinctions.
  Lyrics, when stripped off their music and printed to stand on their own as just words, often contain more than is necessary to make the impact that poetry aims for.
  Poetry (strictly talking of modern poetry here, not marabu or metered poems) sacrifices melody and rhymes for the sake of imagery, irony, and poignancy.
  
  Songs such as:
  "Mayakkam Enathu Thaayagam Mounam Enathu Thaaimozhi"--Kannadhaasan
  "Pani Vizhum Malar Vanam"--Vairamuthu
  "Pavalak Kodiyilae Muththukkal Pooththaal"--Vaali
  "Mounamae Nenjil Naalum Nee Ezhuthum"--Mu. Metha
  "Maanjolai Kilithaanoa"--Muththulingam
  
  qualify as poetry in my book.
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Wed Mar 3 17:55:46 EST 1999
  
  Wow Udaya,
  
  I liked your idea about "stripping" to see if the lyric can be called as poem. Yup - I'd see it as the acid-test to accept if lyric can become a poem.
  
  Rameshb, "Vaadi yen kappa kizhange" will not qualify to be called as anything except JUNK. Andhai "poem" cateogry-la sekkaradhe paavam.
  
  chandy
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Mar 5 10:06:19 EST 1999
  
  Let us take up one of the issues raised earlier by Bhoori :
  
  >All grammatical poems hv a meter.
  >Can our MDs give a nice tune to this ?
  >Bharathis poetry seems to confirm the answer as >yes. But is this possible for say, a venba ?
  >How many tunes can we come up with the basic >meter and chandam of venba, asiriyappa and for >that matter, a sonnet ?
  
  One of the yardsticks that need to be used for measuring the quality of a MD's performance could be this. IMO, coming up with a tune for which some lyric is written later is easier than composing for a tune, for a given lyric! (any disaggrements rameshb?? :) ) Composing music for a existing set of lyrics is the real acidtest for a MD. Of course, all bharathiyaar songs and songs written prior to 1940s (advent of TF) fall under this cateogry.
  
  One can certainly make different tunes for venba etc.. Or one could take a few lines and sing them like some "virutham".
  
  We could generate a list of such songs for which music was composed after the lyric was written adn try and compare MDs. Any takers?
  
  chandy
  
  
• From: saba senthil (@ ) on: Mon Oct 15 19:19:23 EDT 2001
  
  hi all,
  
  what about this thread.....
  
  then....i come across ..the opinions abt marabu and puthu kavithaigal.
  
  my opinion is..
  
  every word which we say (or write)with emotional feeling is a poem.
  
  then in next stage,
  if that poem tries to lift the life level of people then it is a good poem
  
  
  marabuk kavithai.. vaasaganaiyum...poi adaiyarathillai.
  at the same time....it does`nt give the poet full freedom to flow his feelings thro his fingers.
  
  so in this way....just we can use puthu kavithai to write..our feelings
  
  
  
• From: me (@ 130.127.75.121) on: Sat Oct 23 17:01:04 EDT 2004
  
  good thread
  
  

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