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Poetry vs Lyrics

Topic started by Bhoori (@ synvpn.synplicity.com) on Tue Feb 23 21:55:02 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Is Kannadasan a poet or a lyricist ? Indha Katru Veliyidai Kannamma - is this a poem because the author intended it to be poetry and not a lyric ? How different is it in quality from, say, Singarak Kanne Un Thenoorum Sevvayal ?

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Bhoori (@ synvpn.synplicity.com) on: Fri Feb 26 17:18:12 EST 1999
  
  As I said earlier, I think that the word "Oru" is the right usage in that line - I guess Bharathi must hv foreseen rameshbs objections! ;-)
  
  Anyway we hv two options now viz. we can continue the poetry vs lyrics discussion or convert this to a Bharathi vs Kannadasan debate. Whichever interests you guys...
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Feb 26 17:36:59 EST 1999
  
  My vote is for poetry vs lyrics guys!! we could take x versus y's style along the way!!
  
  Rameshb: i enjoyed the discussion as much as u did (finally, a white flag from you. Nandri Sir!. Btw how do you BOLD some of your words. My editor doesnt seem to allow that?)
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Fri Feb 26 17:38:17 EST 1999
  
  Bhoori,
  i think we can stick to your topic 'Is kannadasan a poet or lyricist?' . I brought bharathi into the discussion only as an example to explain how 'practical' are his verses as aginst the 'idealistic' visionaries of others. I can get more examples to prove my observations. We can also take other poets(excluding VM) of this century and compare them with kannadasan and analyse if kannadasan is 1)lyricist 2)poet 3)both 4) above all of these 4)none of above!
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Feb 26 17:49:19 EST 1999
  
  Rameshb,
  
  Kannadasan is more a lyricist than a poet. Bharathi cant be compared because of the absence of a medium called movies in his time. So we could take others in this "kaalakatam" and discuss to what extent they are lyricist and poets.. (we could take vaali, kannadasan, VM and such people)
  
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Fri Feb 26 17:49:27 EST 1999
  
  Chandy,
  you have to start your bold with < followed by B followed by > followed by your text and end with < follwed by / followed by B follwed by >
  (since i donot know the escape character to put them together , i had to write the instruction as a sentence!;-))
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Feb 26 17:57:32 EST 1999
  
  Is this going to work? let me try
  Rameshb, is this bold
  
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Fri Feb 26 17:57:46 EST 1999
  
  Chandy
  Bharathiyar's poems have been used in TFM. Even kaani nilam has been sung in a movie (i donot remember). Since the question was whether kannadasan was a poet or lyricist , i thought we can compare his works with other poets. Kannadasan vs VM has already been discussed in a detailed manner. Please check the archives. IMO, vaali is not to the standards of kavingar, but there is nothing wrong in making a comparison. I am open to any discussion that fires up the atmosphere! (without personal attacks like in those of IRvsARR comparisons) BTW, could you understand my attempt to answer 'how to get bold?'
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Feb 26 17:58:51 EST 1999
  
  oh yes, it worked!! thank you uncle, Rameshb
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Fri Feb 26 17:59:41 EST 1999
  
  Ayyo !
  you did not close it properly. I closed it for you! You have to close with < followed by / followed B followed by > .
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Feb 26 18:00:33 EST 1999
  
  rameshb,
  
  vaali is very good as a poet too. Havent you had a chance to read his ramayan and now mahabharatam in anada vikatan? hes just too good!!
  
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Fri Feb 26 18:01:03 EST 1999
  
  Ennachchu
  what letter did you use 'B' or 'b'
  
  
• From: ramesh (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Fri Feb 26 18:02:16 EST 1999
  
  Chandy,
  could you tell me what letters you used to open boldness?
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Fri Feb 26 18:05:32 EST 1999
  
  closing bold
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Feb 26 18:06:41 EST 1999
  
  ayooo
  
  i used a "<" followed by a B at the beginining and and the end. I never used a "/". edvadhu panungo uncle!
  
  
• From: ramesh (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Fri Feb 26 18:08:19 EST 1999
  
  closing /B> bold
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Feb 26 18:09:20 EST 1999
  
  rameshb sir, i'm leaving.. pls try and convert this bold back to normal. Illaina, we'll have all people after our lives :)
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Fri Feb 26 18:10:35 EST 1999
  
  Try this,
  some text followed by / followed by B follwed by > followed by some text
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Fri Feb 26 18:12:35 EST 1999
  
  Only ravi can help us!
  
  Ravi could you please revert this bold effect!
  
  
• From: M (@ marconi.uwaterloo.ca) on: Fri Feb 26 18:13:22 EST 1999
  
  closing Bold
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Feb 26 18:13:31 EST 1999
  
  rameshb, i hv sought help from him. Hopefully he'll sort it out :)
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Feb 26 18:14:30 EST 1999
  
  Thank you M. Rameshb, indha madhiri AAraychi ellam inime venam! :)
  
  
• From: Bhoori (@ synvpn.synplicity.com) on: Fri Feb 26 20:25:27 EST 1999
  
  The topic is not whether Kannadasan is a poet or a lyricist. The topic is poetry vs lyrics. The points that may be discussed are:
  
  1. What makes a lyric a poem ?
  
  2. What makes a lyric not a poem ?
  
  3. Is poetry an elite subclass of lyrics ? ( All poems are lyrics but not vice versa. )
  3. All grammatical poems hv a meter. Can our MDs give a nice tune to this ? Bharathis poetry seems to confirm the answer as yes. But is this possible for say, a venba ? How many tunes can we come up with the basic meter and chandam of venba, asiriyappa and for that matter, a sonnet ?
  
  4. Do the lyricists, in general, consider their lyrics written for movies as a lesser achievement ? Does the average TFM fan think so ?
  
  5. Who among the TFM lyricists can be considered as poets ? This is probably the fun part, when we can all come up with examples of lyrics that impressed us by their quality. Who among the lyricists cant be considered as poets ?
  
  
• From: nakkeeran (@ inet-fw5-o.oracle.com) on: Fri Feb 26 20:28:58 EST 1999
  
  chandy, let that not discourage you from using bold! lemme try something here, and I hope it appears properly!
  
  for starting bold: type "=<=b=>" and for closing it, type "=<=/=b=>". just remove the "=" signs from the html directives i've given. it should work.
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Mon Mar 1 09:59:03 EST 1999
  
  A lyric is something that fits a tune. It could be rhyming, but rhyme alone doesnt make a poem. Some movie songs which sound rhyming (T-Rajendar kinds who uses rhyming extensively) will be called only a lyric, and not a poem. A poem will definitely carry a message and will make sense.
  
  LYRIC : Tune comes first, and then comes the verses which will have to fit the tune.
  
  POEM : the verses come first, and then the tune/music is made to fit the POEM.
  
  An analogy for this is : weaving an appropriate mundanai for a saree (poem), or making the mundanai first, and weaving an elaborate saree for that (lyric)
  
  Another important diff. LYRIC can or cannot make sense. It may or may not carry a message for the reader. But a poem will have to definitely carry a message for the reader.
  
  So, all lyrics need not be poems. But all poems can be made into lyrics!!
  
  Theres a very wafer-thine line distinction between lyrics and poems. Can we come up with some lyrics which cannot be called as poems (as per my definitions cited above?)
  
  Some portions of lyrics could contain some lines that could be poetic. But that doesnt make it a complete poem.
  
  Eg for such lyrics which cannot qualify as poems:
  
  Naan dhaan top-u, meedhi ellam dupe-u
  
  mukkala muqabla laila oh laila
  
  maapillai maapillai mannankatti thopulla
  
  Pettai Rap (definitely not a poem, but a lyric)
  
  savalankadi girigiri saidapettai varakari uttambaru jaangiri sonpadi naina maina
  
  Theres a song in AMARAN.. sung by Srividhya.. proper dapAnkoothu number... thats a lyric, not a poem.
  
  Can we generate more??
  
  chandy
  
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Mon Mar 1 10:23:09 EST 1999
  
  chandy, neenga sollaradhellaam lyricsnnu sollaradhE paavam:-))
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Mon Mar 1 12:40:05 EST 1999
  
  bb,
  
  Can we help it? as per my definition, they fit in the definition of lyrics. dont they?
  
  Rameshb, bhoori, enna sir? satamae kaanoom?
  chandy
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Mon Mar 1 12:56:45 EST 1999
  
  Chandy, bb,
  
  munthAnai analogy is just awsome. enna 'Textile engineering' padicheengaLA? ennaku munthAnai endrAL munnAl thavam kidakkum Anai vasiyappaduththuvathu endru thAn theriyum . kannai thorukkanum sAmi theiryumO? ithu lyric-a illa poem-A;-))))))))
  
  I agree with most of your points. If poem is pre-written to suit the tune, does it always follow the norms of a poem ? Are there any design fundementals for structuring a poem like that of cheyyuL, veNba etc. If none, what is a distinguishing feature of a poem compared to that of a lyric. How would you classify our great Deva's GANNA numbers
  
  'vitha vithamA sOppu seeppu kaNNadi
  yen akkA maga anjalai .....'
  dAvu dAvu dAvudA dAvillAtti dieyadA'
  
  'salAmiya, salAmiyA
  sutta kanji sOrudA
  pudicha karuvAdudA
  vAzhaimeenu kAludA
  vAra styla pArudA'
  
  'kothavAl sAvadi lady nee kOyambEdu vaadi'
  
  any thoughts?
  
  
  
• From: Bhoori (@ synvpn.synplicity.com) on: Mon Mar 1 20:52:24 EST 1999
  
  chandy; I cant accept that mettukku paattu automatically become a lyric. The reverse is also true - not all "lyrics" for which a tune is set later automatically qualify as poetry. The probability, yes but not certainity. Van Nila Nila Alla was written after the tune and that would qualify as poetry by my book. Aagayap Pandalile was set to tune later and in my view, thats just a lyric.
  
  IMO, several of the film songs, despite being written to a tune, do qualify as poetry.
  
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Mon Mar 1 22:18:23 EST 1999
  
  rameshb: daavu daavu daavudaa is an example of a great(??!!) poem.. it is a 21st century version of "kaadhal kaadhal kaadhal, kaadhal pOyin saadhal":-))))
  chandy: by definition neenga sollaradhu right, but i guess we will be wasting our time talking about such songs. compare pannumbOdhu, we will be better off discussing good lyrics vs good poems. edhu poem, edhu lyrics appadinnu oru varaiyarai kidaiyaadhu. in that case, we will have to go by our discretion.
  
  

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