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WHY IR CAN NOT BE THE BEST OF TFM?

Topic started by karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on Sun Jan 31 04:05:48 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have found since I came into this forum that there are many IR lovers who, just would not pay heed to listen to great works of Viswanathan Ramamoorthy or the like who had done wonders to the Tamil Film Music, but only go about claiming him to be the best.

Similarly, the ones who do not treat IR as the best have not found an opportunity to compare his works or so called creations with the great works of other musicians.

I would like the arguments to confine only to the Tamil Film songs in their completeness, and please, don't bring in the Re-recording or the Back Ground Music of a film, or separate albums from the MDs if any. After all, when we hear songs we don't always think of the movies they came from!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: karthi (@ lab6.theatrium.net) on: Sat Feb 6 21:32:39 EST 1999
  
  And Suresh!
  
  In response to your last to last posting answering my certain questions...well, here are my views:
  
  1. I am not here to belittle IR. My reaction that most of IR's songs were like recital was actually a rejoinder to what Raj had posted saying "Andha NaaL Nyaabagam" was just a song with dialogues in between! Was that all you would say? That song was certainly a quite different one in its conception. He did not seem to realize it which is why I reacted that way.
  
  2. The instances of songs given by Srikanth were to bring out the different facets of MSV in composing songs thereby proving his creativity. To name a song like "Chippi Irukkudhu", as "just another number" - sorry Suresh! That's why I said you guys had blind faith!
  
  3. And you (or someone else) can't be reasonable in quoting TMS singing for Sivaji in "Sandippu". This is like taking into account the worst for comparison. I can quote many many songs of IR where while the song as such would be good it will never suit the actor. He seemed to have a kind of obsession with S Janaki (and SPB?), even when a lot others could have done even better considering their talent! You can't say this to MSV, because he has always used the right artistes to sing for his films during his hay days and even during those years when he used to give good music after IR's entry into the field.
  
  You all are ready to accept the greatness of MSV always maintaining that IR was greater! Why don't you all give the due credit to MSV who was a trend setter many ways and be fair to yourself? I have never ever seen any of you guys doing justice to MSV by recognizing any of his works to be the best. After all, he's a musician who has given innumerable immortal numbers.
  
  I am ready to accept IR as the best (just by taking utmost confidence in and believing the postings of you guys and certain other material which I have read of IR in magazines) in certain areas like bringing in novelty through WC in songs' interludes, taking the BGM to add emotion to the scenes or sometimes (or many times?) going even further, letting the BGM do it all, and in my opinion (which I formed of IR when I used to listen to his works sincerely)- breathing a new kind of freshness into songs which was most needed in the TFM at that time - all the same doing justice to my belief that MSV was the best in terms of melody and infusing richness (in terms of giving grand music) and completeness to songs.
  
  
• From: karthi (@ lab6.theatrium.net) on: Sat Feb 6 21:38:17 EST 1999
  
  I have also forgotten to add that IR was the one to bring the "maNNin maNam" in his songs, while MSV's creations needed an intuitive rasanai. (This is not certainly to provoke someone to come up with questions like "Do you think we are all not intuitive?", please...). And that "chinnoondu manasu, thukkliyoondu rasanai" - oh suresh, that was just kidding :-) (sorry for digressing - this - were you not the one who criticized me indirectly when I had posted a rather strong-worded rejoinder to those who failed appreciate P Susheela's voice to say 'her voice is old and not gold'?
  
  
• From: UV (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Sun Feb 7 02:21:48 EST 1999
  
  HCMSV_Fan (we know who u r , why are you trying to hide your identity ???? )
  
  I have already posted what your reply was going to be. You have reinforced my conviction that my guesses never go wrong!!! thanks for that.
  
  sorry for digressing ,guys.
  
  
• From: Suresh (@ bowerbird.qut.edu.au) on: Sun Feb 7 03:07:45 EST 1999
  
  Karthi:
  
  It's a pleasure to you have you back again, after all the acrimony that we seem to be getting swept away in. Forget about "chinnoondu..", I was just trying to be truthful to my aim of making a point-by-point rebuttal, & I guess got carried away :) Yes, it was me (in the PS thread); we seem to be crossing swords in so many forums, but you're a much interesting (& fairer) person to argue with...
  
  If we're guilty of labelling "chippi irukkudhu" as an ordinary no., haven't you guys done much worse? I don't have to pick out some outrageous statements here to make my point, but let me just say that we're atleast trying to maintain a fine balance between subtle criticism and overt bashing.
  
  About MSV, have me or anybody here tried to invalidate his position as an all-time great in TFM? I was just trying to say that in all the heat of exchanges, that you guys were putting up (by his standards) average works as indicative of his vast repertoire IMO! I'd have, for instance, cited one "vizhiye kadhai ezhudhu" as indicative of his resources in a cross-comparison with IR, & there are many such.
  
  Isn't it obvious when I mentioned "transcending generational niche..", what I meant was that IR's appeal will extend to the generatioNEXT's :))
  
  I don't want to get into details here, but I've had the pleasure of interacting with MSV while recording a TV commercial years ago, and touch wood, he's as remarkable & broad-minded a person one would ever hope to see in film world.
  
  And, to refute the HCIRF-as-Blind-to-everything tag, let me add that though I can claim no personal experience with IR (apart from watching a few recordings), I've organised one of ARR's first big rock concerts as part of "Nemesis Avenue" while he was still a Dilip, much before Roja (JhivE Live, Island Grounds Chennai, 01/12/91). And to add, I've known Suresh Peters and many of ARR's close band, fairly well. It was therefore a great joy to see ARR's break with Roja, as many of my friends were (some still are) involved in its making. I'm making this point to just show that I'm not an unreasonable IR-fanatic, and that I have great respect for others as well.
  
  I wouldn't bother as much as to delude myself into being IR's PRO (&I think I have some company here)
  if not for you guys coming up with anything you can to slander his music. I remember it started out as an ARR-IR affair, & when that started going nowhere, a quick turn-around to MSV followed, secure in the belief that as we're possibly young guys, none of us could claim to have authentically followed TFM from KBS/MKT's time! And, it's almost as it is programmed to proceed by a programmed logic- if nothing else works, try these 1) IR's ego, 2) GA's inspiration, 3)the ephemeral Symphony. How many times have you seen a logical counter to the finer aspects of IR's music that are being discussed by Srinath, Anand & other friends who can claim some music-knowledge (unlike me:(
  
  Srikanth:
  
  Please don't drag yourself into such silly depths. You're making a parody of yourself. I don't want to perpetuate more mudslinging, your genius is fully justified to indulge in such idiosyncracies.
  Continue posting, & you'll unnecessarily harm MSV's case here.
  
  Venkat!
  Thanks. But I don't think that we should close our minds to ARR or VS,or whoever comes in with fresh ideas. Music tastes are evolutionary, & coming from an advertising profession, I can sometimes (!) see the virtue of ARR's music as perfect marketing tools. Who knows, some day I might find ARR just the perfect MD for a movie I make, for marketing reasons or otherwise? (if I ever get there!!)
  
  
  Cheers..
  
  
• From: Shankar (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Sun Feb 7 12:06:07 EST 1999
  
  Guys,
  
  Let me see things from a HCMSV's views at this point of time.Say ,one of the generations to come (u can't say which.As long as Raja scores music he'll fascinate any generation with his creativity and adaptability),but in case in a generation or two after he's stopped scoring music there exists a forum in which a group of morons discuss IR doesn't have the variety ARR has etc..etc and if i happen to be there , I'm sure my arguments will more caustic, more acidulous than what Srikanth or HCMSVF (whoever it is ) is putting forth and I won't mind calling those guys morons for they don't know what IR has done to TFM.
  
  So, there's nothing wrong in a HCMSVF pouncing on us thinking that we don't know anything about MSV.
  
  All we have to do is to prove him that such & such are the flaws MSV had and these are the areas in which Raja is superior to MSV etc.
  
  I can't in anyway help in this as I have a limited exposure to MSV and Classical music. Probably techie guys like srinath or Muralisankar can put things technically so that any HCMSV is proved that Raja is anyday better than MSV.
  
  I wish this thread to continue in that direction ,rather than cheap quarrels and one guy getting out and another making fun of him.
  
  ....the standard disclaimer ;-))))
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-185.il.us.ibm.net) on: Sun Feb 7 22:40:05 EST 1999
  
  Hi Guys,
  I just came back,
  btw:Suresh , what do you mean by silly argument, clarify please, I was not around for 2 days had to goto Chicago.
  
  Shanker : Thanks for calling (me) us a Moran. I can also call YOU the same as you have not known or bothered to know what MSV has done.
  Since there is big difference between you and me , I would rather not call you. Try to talk well or learn to talk well. As you have put the std disclaimer -- do make cheap quarrels.
  
  Srikanth
  
  
  
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Mon Feb 8 02:55:10 EST 1999
  
  Shankar,
  Good Luck! If you go back five pages in old responses, you'll see that I had tried the same- to take the discussions away from personal dishum-dishum atleast five times. Each time, I took pains to summarise the salient points of both sides, ending with a desparate plea to continue with those points and 'counter-points'. But, then....:) .
  You know what it has descended to now. I just hope you have better luck in steering this discussion in the right direction... Perhaps, we should start singing..
  "Enn kanavinai kel nanba, nanba,
  kuzhai-adi sandai illadha TFM(?)...."
  :)
  
  
  BTW, I think HCMSVF(whoever it was) was parodying Srikanth!
  
  
• From: Shankar (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Mon Feb 8 10:18:40 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth,
  I was NOT AT ALL calling u a moron.(where did u find this in my posting???)
  
  I was calling those (non-existent) entities who were arguing that ARR is better than Raja (not knowing fully about Raja's achievements) -morons.
  
  and if were there in that forum, i said , i wud have pounced more vehemently than what u r doing now (I'm supporting u ,boss!!!!).
  
  By that I mean THERE IS NOTHING WRONG IN UR ANGRY STATEMENTS ABOUT IR AND HIS FANS IN GENERAL because u feel that we are ignorant of MSV's achievements. Well, I am. that's the reason why i said ,
  
  "I can't in anyway help in this as I have a limited exposure to MSV and Classical music"
  
  All I wanted was that those guys who have good exposure to both MSV and Raja come with some good arguments to prove Raja is the best.
  
  Again, I was calling those non-existent entities as morons (anybody who says ARR is better than Raja is indeed a MORON ,IMO) and NOT you or any other MSV fans.
  
  Hope it clears.
  
  
• From: Shankar (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Mon Feb 8 11:03:00 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth,
  I guess before accusing anybody, PLEASE ,FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE UNDERSTAND WHAT THE OTHER GUYS ARE TRYING TO PUT ACROSS.
  
  While going back home day before I was thinking, what wud happen a few years after raja have stopped scoring music??
  
  Will that generation know who raja was and will they be ignorant/foolish enough to compare Raja with arr ???.
  
  Then I found that word "foolish" and "ignorant" in my statement!!!
  
  That was the first time I saw things in the perspective of a fan of a retired MD. I felt ,there's nothing wrong in those people thinking us (Raja worshippers ,as u wud like to call us) as ignorant or fools and there's nothing childish about U or that HCMSV (whoever it is ) getting angry about our statements.
  
  ungaLukku support paNNa pOi , ungakittEyE vangi kattindEn.modhallA enna sollavarEnnu purinjindu ,vArthaya vudunga.
  
  Raj,
  
  pEsAma nAnum inimE madathanamA Edhavadhu statement vuttundu irukka porEn. at least I will deserve those words thrown by srikanth :-)))
  
  

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