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WHY IR CAN NOT BE THE BEST OF TFM?

Topic started by karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on Sun Jan 31 04:05:48 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have found since I came into this forum that there are many IR lovers who, just would not pay heed to listen to great works of Viswanathan Ramamoorthy or the like who had done wonders to the Tamil Film Music, but only go about claiming him to be the best.

Similarly, the ones who do not treat IR as the best have not found an opportunity to compare his works or so called creations with the great works of other musicians.

I would like the arguments to confine only to the Tamil Film songs in their completeness, and please, don't bring in the Re-recording or the Back Ground Music of a film, or separate albums from the MDs if any. After all, when we hear songs we don't always think of the movies they came from!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Fri Feb 5 15:05:15 EST 1999
  
  Srinath,
  "IR's harmony sounds flat"
  Would you characterize is at predictable.I find IR's chord progression perfect to the underlying melodic structure.I have been learning guitar for more than a year and have tried to decipher progression of IR which are astounding.I have given some tapes of IR to my guitar teacher, who was ex-"poison" and is in this business for 25 years.He rates IR's progression as astounding and infact wants to visit chennai to have tete-de-tete with him.
  To call it plain flat is totally inexcusable from somebody who is/was a bass guitarist.Try listening to "Vandede oh"(SJ solo) from kizhaku vaasal and harmoics are pulsating.
  
  
• From: Murali Sankar (@ 129.252.23.145) on: Fri Feb 5 15:26:17 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth:
  
  Mari mari ninney and Manathil uruthi vendum are two good examples of IR' songs for prewritten lyrics. the former was in a dfifferent ragam altogether. He did it Saramathi
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ 210-187-219.ipt.aol.com) on: Fri Feb 5 22:10:49 EST 1999
  
  Anand Mahadevan:
  Note for note - yes IR's harmonics are flat ! Unfortunately, what slips past most people is that harmonics are not created note for note ! They play a supportive role in IR's numbers unlike ARR's songs where they practically run parallel to the tune. If you were to take the tune out of an IR number with vocal or instrumental harmonies, you would find an "apparently plainer, flatter tune" playing behind - that is what I was talking about. In ARR's songs, they sound like a second or even third tune ! It is not easy to create harmonics note for note and IMO, is counter-productive to the song. I was appreciating ARR's efforts in creating harmonics by the tune, than by the chord progression - but I was not appreciative of the output ! OTOH, IR's harmonics are, as you said, derived from the chord pattern. This gives a more resonant fullness to the song and I think it is one of the prime reasons why some find ARR's numbers 'shallow' ! That is, IR's harmonics make the songs 'stronger' whereas ARR's make them more obvious, if you know what I mean. Quite often, I find myself humming the parts rather than the main tune in IR songs, so that should tell you what I think of IR's usage of harmony in his songs :-) Oh! BTW, I started off as a rythm/lead guitarist and found it much beyond my abilities to play IR's numbers with any amount of fidelity - that's why I stuck to bass - same wonderful notes, one at a time :-)
  
  
• From: Suresh (@ bellbird.qut.edu.au) on: Sat Feb 6 01:03:03 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth avargale:
  
  The creator of the word Light music in TFM was MSV? Is it your contention that he was the first MD in TFM or that all the other MDs before him were playing either classical Carnatic or hard rock?
  
  By now, I'm pretty tired of your challenging our music experience. I need not list the no. of MSV tapes I have or the PBS/PS collections I have to convince you that we've listened to quite a lot of MSV (&other MDs) and respect him for his work. But then, it always seems to me that you're bent on tagging as "onnum theriyadha chinna pasanga", smug with your knowledge that we can't challenge you with any understanding of the theoretical aspects of music.
  
  Poonai kannai moodina - is another of your BIG blunder assumptions. It's silly to argue with you that we've indeed listened to music from diff. parts of the world, and do appreciate several diverse music forms, ranging from a Nusrat to a Maharajapuram, Lobo to Marley, Deff Leppard to Savage Garden. But we'll not disturb your peace of mind that exists in believing that all we, a bunch of hero-worshipping morons, have heard of music is IR scores, nothing else.
  
  In one breath ,you say that the tune is of paramount importance, not lyrics (can u listen to SPB reading...), that Kannadasan's lyrics got their life only because of MSV, and in the next instant you do an all-opposite turnaround and charge that IR spoilt the lyrics deliberately. When it suits you, the tune is THE most important factor, and when it comes to IR, NO, the lyrical quality is what counts. Well, we again await your proof that IR forced all the poor, hapless lyricists at gun-point to write nonsense.
  
  Why do you assume that IR had to fight back against ARR to prove anything? By the same reckoning, would you say that MSV surrendered meekly after IR came into TFM? We have sufficient good grace to consider MSV working for IR subsequently (I can hear you saying that MSV actually was doing all the music for those IR films, not conducting or whatever) as a perfect symbol of harmony between two great artists.
  
  For too long, you've ended all your postings with your query about Symphony. The arguments here are focussed only on TFM, even if you want to extend it beyond that domain, IR has achieved much more in non-film albums as well as other languages. Anyway, God forbid, if the Symphony is ever released, would you say that the conquest of IR is complete?
  
  I think someone has already made the point that your argument of "pre-written" lyrics vs. "post-tune" lyrics is just another sheer desperate excuse to take away from IR's merit.
  
  I need not repeat 5 hits of IR in 90's as you would anyway debunk them saying that the very few people who've heard it exist just in the TFM-df's.
  Wonder what gives you the authority to pronounce these sweeping judgements when IR has given some of his biggest 1) mass hits (Chinna Thambi to K.Mariyadhai) as well as 2) class albums (Kaalapani to Guru), in the 90's.
  
  "First MSV, then comes IR" - well, no one's disputing that IR came into TFM after MSV:)))
  
  Simply said, MSV was an icon of his generation, much the same way as IR was for his, and ARR is continuing in the present. The 3 represent 3 milestones of generational evolution in TFM. It's our contention that only IR's music transcends the
  generational niche and will stand the test of time, for its sheer innovation, creativity, and diversity.
  
  Adieu..
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ d155-36.ce.mediaone.net) on: Sat Feb 6 02:30:11 EST 1999
  
  Suresh :
  Nice words but I dont agree to most of your arguments,
  I do not want to argue on this anymore, basically no one here have heard MSV, so it is not worth talking and wasting my engery.
  
  btw:Kalapani simply sucks.Guru No one knows about it. It is all hyped totally by many fans here.
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: UV (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Sat Feb 6 03:42:50 EST 1999
  
  srikanth,
  
  You are back to form ,i guess ,with ur childish statements like "kAlApAni sux and GURU is hyped".
  
  what?? ur next statement will be - "This forum is full of Worshippers f IR, i have some better work to do than arguing with morons like you ..blah..blah.." ,right???
  
  IR 1000000000 times better songs kudukkum bOdhu yAR sir MSV ellam poi ketpaanga ?(I want you to stay here in this forum).
  
  
• From: Suresh (@ bellbird.qut.edu.au) on: Sat Feb 6 05:53:31 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth:
  
  I really doubt if we should take your statements seriously anymore. You're fast degenerating into a Subramaniam Swamy/ Jayalalitha kind of situation. YOu seem to be making it a habit to talk all kinds of nonsense, and when someone slightly ever criticises you, you'll retreat with an air of a hurt & brave warrior, only to have some suckers like us inviting you back. We've seen this pattern many times, that it's not funny anymore.
  
  Though, to be fair to you, you don't pretend to have an iota of respect for all our collective opinions or tastes.
  
  With all due respects to your immense talent and musical knowledge, if composing a few songs gives you the wisdom to trash Kaalapaani & Guru, I shudder to think what would have happened if you had even a few movies to your credit like a Sirpi or a Devendran, leave alone being a Deva or ARR.
  
  You really disappoint me everytime..
  
  
  
• From: Venkat (@ 6.philadelphia-03-04rs.pa.dial-access.att.net) on: Sat Feb 6 09:18:29 EST 1999
  
  Suresh:
  
  Brilliant! Perceptive! Well written!
  
  The TFM market is made of different segments: The IR segment where people are addicted to the brilliance of his compositions and cannot accept anything else, the ARR segment where people want to hear only tunes that are modern (western, beats etc) and have a craving to be accepted by north indians/the western world and the anti-IR segment, made up of mostly those of those MSV fans who took it personally when IR displaced MSV or have some personal grouse against IR.
  
  The make up of these segments, their opinions, perceptions, tastes and perhaps the demographics and psycopgrphics are unique. For example, if you have been addicted to IR's brilliance, you can never go ga ga over the "haira haira" type music and accept that type of stuff. But if you are one of the ARR segment (wannabe accepted as hip), you have to like those songs and cannot like IR's music. Similarly, whatever you say rationally, the anti-IR segment cannot and will not accept IR.
  
  Given all these, why don't us IR fans (labeled as hard core IR Fanatics: of course, I enjoy being called one, Hey! if I'm going to accused of being extremist, I like it to be for enjoying IR's brilliance) just enjoy the brilliance of IR. Youa re never going to get some of these people to acceptIR is great. Why waste the effort! People demeaning IR and his music is not anyway going to diminish him, his acheivement or us...it just reflects their opinions, biases and perceptions. In other words, just ignore and enjoy IR's music.
  
  
• From: HCMSV-Fan (@ client-116-221.bellatlantic.net) on: Sat Feb 6 10:44:47 EST 1999
  
  All you HCIR fans are idiots. You have not heard MSV. I know everything. All IR music is trash.
  I won't post in this forum again. All HCIR fans are kaNNai moodikkoNda poonais.
  
  
• From: Velaiyaththavan (@ 129.252.23.157) on: Sat Feb 6 16:20:36 EST 1999
  
  Some more MSV supporters using unparlimentary words! Who said MSV was bad ? Everybody inclusive of IR accepts his greatness. With persons "knowing everything" in the world (except their name) supporting him, IR fans hardly have any chance to speak. I wonder why bashing IR gives such a great pleasure to some. Once they get provoked they go into exile . But Rama's vananvaasam is not permanent. He is bound to come back.
  
  This sort of behaviour is more reminiscent of Gajni Mohd than Rama.
  
  
• From: karthi (@ lab6.theatrium.net) on: Sat Feb 6 21:00:15 EST 1999
  
  Suresh!
  
  Just one point to contend with. You were very reasonable in your argument except the last statement....
  
  "It's our contention that only IR's music
  transcends the generational niche and will stand the test of time, for its sheer innovation, creativity, and diversity"
  
  Is this the reason why you also hear PBS/PS collections and a lot of MSV tapes even now?
  
  
  

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