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Tamil Film Music Cateogories

Topic started by Mukund (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on Tue Mar 10 17:54:59 EST 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I want all of us to participate in a healthy discussion to come up with reasonable definition of different kinds of music cateogories - thereby shedding more light to unexplored areas of Tamil Film Music as it is becoming more and more "international" :-) by the day. This process is simply to increase the knowledge base.

Cateogories that come to my mind are Carnatic, Western Classical, Jazz, Fusion, Flamenco, New age etc. -- :-) so many terms and so little definition.

As for Carnatic and Western Classical, their foundations lie basically in melody and harmony based approaches to music.

What are the foundations of other kinds of music ?
Are they based on the use of certain kind of instruments ?

Since TFM-DF consists of varied set of people with inclinations towards different musical tastes as well I am hoping a lot of them to contribute for this article

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: pal (@ c45220.ece.umn.edu) on: Thu Apr 16 19:35:08 EDT 1998
  
  mux and mannAru,
  sorry for not making that chord stuff understandable. I will try to elaborate it later.
  
  Somehow, my openion about the song 'mOgam ennum' differs. I may be wrong also. It is just my openion. In fact, this song is the counter example how the vivadhis ( is the terminology correct? I am not sure about the termo... mux, can you provide the defenitions? ) are used excellently express the agitated-depressed-painful feelings.
  
  mux, can you tell me the kanakangi raga swarams. I guess I might be able to explain little more about this argument of mine.
  
  
• From: pal (@ c45220.ece.umn.edu) on: Thu Apr 16 19:40:32 EDT 1998
  
  mux,
  unnOda 'ragangaLai thrinthukoLLungal' and '30 natkaLil vAipAttu' :-) or something like that books en kittE vittuttu pOitta, gyAbagam irukkA?
  
  kEvalamAna books,da.... en friend othan nallA pAdaNumnu rOmba asaippattAn.... ( mannAru, athu vEra yaarum illai... namma 'pAttukkAra' sriram thaan! ).. avan kittE koduthuttu vanthuttean... innEram IISc hostel-gAli thaan! :-))
  
  
• From: Mux (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Fri Apr 17 17:03:01 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  
  Pal: The swaras for Kanakangi are S R1 G1 M1 P D1 N1 S and same in avarohanam. The 1st Melakartha.
  
  The following is the explanation of SLR about the song.
  --------------------------------------------------
  Kanakangi is a difficult ragam to handle properly. The reason is that it has got vivadhi swarams
  at two levels. Sa Ri1 Ga1 and Pa Da1 Ni1.
  
  The transition from one note to its immediate
  adjacent note is discernable by human ear. But when you get such transitions consecutively like
  in Sa Ri1 Ga1 and Pa Da1 Ni1, it becomes jarring to the mind!
  
  He has handled that raga in a very intelligent way. Nowhere in that song does he travels the entire octave. Because if you travel like that, it will be very jarring and unmelodious. He has divided the raga into bits, delivering sancharas around Sa Ri Ga first, and then going over to Pa Da Ni later, carefully avoiding the sancharas of both the vivadhi levels in the same stretch! Only at the very end, while he goes to the climactic thara sthayi panchamam, he travels from madhyama sthayi panchamam in a single stretch, covering all the notes in between.
  --------------------------------------------------
  
  I am not sure as to what SLR has said here constitutes the proper definition of vivadhi swaras. I am trying to get some text on that. If someone has any pls do come forth.
  
  About the books :-). Those days I would have bought anything that had ragam or carnatic in it. BTW, how and why are these kEvalam ??
  Booka paththi mattum pesarayE ?? Enna casettes vittuttu pOnEnnnu nyabagam irukka ? :-))
  
  You seem to have a very different "openions" compared to other's "opinions", of course :-).
  kOchchikAtheenga !!
  
  BTW, your point about this song being a counter example is probably justified in the last line of song - Comparing with what SLR says
  
  
• From: pal (@ x101-145-88.unreg.umn.edu) on: Sat Apr 18 15:33:06 EDT 1998
  
  mux,
  SLR had done most of the explanations. :-) the half note increments from Sa to ri and ro to ga and the similar ones form Pa to dha and dha to ni are the ones which express the sad feelings predominents in this song. And IR had not tried to avoid these half note increments!
  Where as in the other song,'pani vizhum', there is this half note increments from ri-ga, ga-ma, dha-ni, and ni-sa. But he has carefully avoided the two consecutive HNI ri-ga and ga-ma, mostly. This is the reason why it doesnt sound sad...
  
  ok?
  
  
• From: Mux (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Sat Apr 18 19:04:09 EDT 1998
  
  pal,
  
  The r1-g1 transition and d1-n1 are supposed to be disharmonious, which is what is the definition of vivadhi swarams.
  
  But what about r1-g1-m1-p-d1-n1 transition ??
  
  Why is this supposed to be unmelodious ??
  
  Mux
  
  
• From: pal (@ c45208.ece.umn.edu) on: Sun Apr 19 01:04:18 EDT 1998
  
  I dont know the definition of vivadhi swarams ( can someone give the defenition? ). But I know what is disharmonious. Any HNIs are dismarm. More such HNIs more disharm., ok? Now, when the scale itself has lotsa such HNIs, it becomes difficult to compose happy tunes... ( this is only my hypo.. anyone is free to discuss it... ). Situation gets worse when you have those HTIs next to next... like in kanakangi sa-ri-ga and pa-dha-ni ... interestingly, it is true for chalanattai also... ri-gi-ma and dha-ni-sa. But IR is able to give 'pani vizhum' from one by 'managing' these HTIs while he exploits the same HTIs in 'mogam ennum'... that is what I am trying to say...
  
  
• From: Mux (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Tue Apr 21 13:27:40 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  
  Pal: I got the point. The disharmony inherent in the ragas with vivadhi swarams lends itself to such situations, whereas in "Pani vizhum" it was a composition carefully crafted to avoid this inherent feeling, right ?
  
  Pal & Kanchana: When is this lecture on the keys ?
  
  Mux
  
  
• From: Kanchana (@ ww-tp04.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Apr 22 11:29:47 EDT 1998
  
  Mux:
  Haven't forgotten the "lecture" on keys :) Just got distracted a bit with Bharadhi KavidhaigaL in another thread (can you blame me?). Will be back later today....
  
  
• From: Mux (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Wed Apr 22 17:41:15 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  
  Kanchana: Yes, you can rephrase the previous question as "Now you can take over the podium !!"
  
  Mux
  
  
• From: Kanchana (@ ww-tj01.proxy.aol.com) on: Thu Apr 23 14:36:21 EDT 1998
  
  Mux:
  Sorry for being a no-show yesterday. Since I'm off from work today, I thought I'll have more time to tie up quite a few loose ends around the Major-minor, andhi mazhai & punnagai mannan discussions.
  
  Mux & Pal:
  Thank you for that discussion of Kanagangi and vivadhi swaras which shows there is a lot I need to learn in carnatic music theory; I learned vocal at a young age the conventional way. Any suggestions as to what's the best way to catch up on theory now? Thanks in advance.
  
  Pal & mannAru:
  Thank you for sharing your perspectives on music progression across eras in TFM. I too believe GR is a phenomenon; IMHO, GR does not exemplify/typify his era but, rather, stands out as an exception against most of his contemporaries.
  
  Major-Minor in Western Classical
  The Major scale has the familiar do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-do pattern. Its seven tones are picked out from the possible twelve to form the centralized family or key out of which the musical piece will be fashioned.
  Since I'm slightly familiar with the piano, let me use that to illustrate. If you play the white keys on the piano from C to C you will hear the do-re-mi series. There is no black key on the piano between E-F (mi-fa) and B-C (ti-do); therefore, these tones are a semi-tone apart, while the others are a whole tone apart. When we sing the do-re-mi series, we are singing the pattern do, whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half step.
  Any one of the twelve tones can serve as a starting point for the scale. The other tones are chosen according to the whole tone-half tone pattern explained above. So, a title such as Symphony in A Major refers to a work based largely on the tones of the A-Major scale and associated harmonies, with keynote A serving as the central tone to which others move toward.
  
  The Minor differs primarily from the Major in that its third degree is lowered half-step. Example, the scale of C-Minor has an E-flat instead of an E. There are three types of minors: natural, melodic, harmonic and each has a different definition in terms of which note(s) gets "lowered".
  
  Re andhi mazhai pozhigiRadhu:
  Mux, I think this is one of those pieces which demonstrate the precision/discipline in composition followed by Raja sir along with his understanding of the orchestra, and holds potential for further development.
  He presents one theme in the prelude as a choral humming, which gets repeated later in the charaNams. The first interlude starts with a violin piece which seems to hold another theme with the potential to become a solid string section piece with some wind and percussion thrown in. TVG's soulful humming is another component with its own rhythm and melody which can be explored further by the orchestra. iLayaraja varies the TVG theme from the first interlude and intertwines it with the repeat of the prelude theme in both the charaNams thEnil vaNdu & dhEgam yAvum (cyclical form where themes from different sections are repeated in one section). Finally, the second interlude holds a violin piece which starts development but stops due to time constraints. And, between each theme within a section and between sections there are appropriate "transition pieces" (violin or flute).
  In summary, it is the smart compositional structure, the independent melodic/rhythmic themes in the different sections, and most importantly the independent, varied moods in each of these themes all together make me feel there is more to this piece and leaves me with a feeling of incompleteness when each theme truncates so suddenly (to my ears). Of course I'm no music expert but am just sharing my thoughts here [helpful disclaimer :)].
  
  Re the Punnagai Mannan Instrumental:
  mannAru, I'm glad you focused our attention on this piece; I'd forgotten one of my earlier discussions elsewhere about this piece of music. The motive for the theme for this instrumental is actually "exposed" in the very simple piano piece played by Kamalahasan a few scenes earlier, where the sounds of a door opening & shutting establishes the basic rhythm before the start of the piano piece.
  A few scenes later, Revathy's clapping and a more elaborate percussion develop the simple door-slamming rhythm further followed by the computer developing the simple piano melody further. As the piece progresses, iLayaraja develops the theme more in the real sense--thru a combination of percussion, string, piano, and organ with varied layering and texture at different points he shows the latent energies of that simple piano theme till it reaches its maximal tension level, and finishes with an ordinary tension-release piece at the end to be in line with the mood of the scene. This is quite close to the definition of thematic development--using techniques & orchestration to take a simple melodic/rhythmic kernel and pushing it to the limit.
  Variations of this theme are used as BGM at different points--when Kamalahasan's Rangoli is swept away & Revathy slashes her wrist, during their escape from the hospital and finally, when the car rolls down the cliff in flames.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Mux (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Thu Apr 23 18:27:07 EDT 1998
  
  Kanchana: Well, it has been worthwhile to have waited since yesterday. Very good explanation regarding Andhi mazai and the keys.
  
  Re Carnatic theory : I have a discussion on Graha Bedha in rec.music.indian.classical. Probably I can just send it out to you. Send me your address at rangm@hotmail.com. And this page below has some good in-depth theory discussions by Krishna. Not much on basics though.
  
  http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~krisna/icm.html
  
  BTW, I haven't read any good book on Carnatic theory as of yet. So, if anyone has any suggestions please let me know.
  
  Re Major and Minor in WCM:
  Does the Major scale mean only the white keys ? If so, is difference between A Maj and say, C Maj only found in associated harmonies and the way the melody gravitates towards that tone ? Assuming this is just one scale and adding 3 more minor scales, am I right in saying there are only 4 scales that the melody section can exploit in WC ?
  There might be lot of mistakes in my understanding. So please bear. :-)
  
  Re Andhi mazhai:
  Once again, a very good explanation. It is very difficult to express the opinions regarding music so emphatically. You know, why I asked you that question ? Because this explanation gives me an idea of how you look at things in the context of WCM. There is so much that lies in perception.
  
  Mux
  
  

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