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Tamil Film Music Cateogories

Topic started by Mukund (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on Tue Mar 10 17:54:59 EST 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I want all of us to participate in a healthy discussion to come up with reasonable definition of different kinds of music cateogories - thereby shedding more light to unexplored areas of Tamil Film Music as it is becoming more and more "international" :-) by the day. This process is simply to increase the knowledge base.

Cateogories that come to my mind are Carnatic, Western Classical, Jazz, Fusion, Flamenco, New age etc. -- :-) so many terms and so little definition.

As for Carnatic and Western Classical, their foundations lie basically in melody and harmony based approaches to music.

What are the foundations of other kinds of music ?
Are they based on the use of certain kind of instruments ?

Since TFM-DF consists of varied set of people with inclinations towards different musical tastes as well I am hoping a lot of them to contribute for this article

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: pal (@ c45208.ece.umn.edu) on: Tue Apr 14 15:51:29 EDT 1998
  
  mux,
  concept of harmony can actually make difference even while singing or playing a melody. Otherwise, why have they found the concepts of vivadhi, vadhi swaras etc. ? I feel knowledge of harmony is essential for indian music also. mux can tell more about it. Otherwise, I will tell one incident in which my guru demonstrated the power of harmony and elegance, if you want.
  
  
• From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Tue Apr 14 16:24:56 EDT 1998
  
  pal please describe that incident. PLEASE.
  
  
• From: mannAru (@ ns.arraycomm.com) on: Tue Apr 14 23:48:57 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Mux, Pal, Kanchana:
  
  I think the word, we are searching in our minds, is "polyphony" which is much more than the "harmony"
  
  IMO, "polyphony" is a super set of "harmony" and
  is acheived by playing many instruments together either in the same or different scale, either in the same meter or different meter and either the same melody or another melody. Thalai sutRukiradA!
  Inji chAru kudikkavum. :)
  
  I hope u can get what i am trying to say.
  
  Another song with definite theme in the interludes
  is "Sundari kannAl oru sEthi" from Thalapathi.
  All of them can be taken as different movements
  in a theme. Fortunately it is a long song to give more time for interludes.
  
  Regarding the "Andhi Mazhai" it is an ocean.
  everytime i listen to this sing i get a new
  perspective in the song. I have recorded that
  atleast in 4 cassttes of mine so that i can listen
  to that more often. I get a new view point
  with respect to orchestration, as a song in
  movie to express the feelings, classical touch, etc etc.
  
  Now u added another dimention. I will listen
  with this view point and comment on this.
  
  Pal: Why don't u tell for the benefit of all
  kathukuttigal?
  
  mannAru
  
  
• From: Kanchana (@ ww-ta04.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Apr 15 01:34:51 EDT 1998
  
  mannAru:
  Re your comment on polyphony: If you recall my original question following your last posting, it is, "Isn't Indian classical predominantly melody+rhythm driven, therefore more monophonic and consonant.....whereas several major pieces in western classical are of polyphonic texture?"
  
  (We've talked about texture earlier as involving harmony & counterpoints.)
  
  I look forward to getting a perspective on my question here.
  
  Pal:
  Big Sister?! I'm honored, "kid brother" :)
  
  Thank you for your comment on MKT & orchestration during that era. I'd be interested in your perspective on the rest of my question:
  Did TFM gradually keep moving toward more polyphonic structures, more intricate/complex music, and more elaborate orchestration as we look at it starting from the 1940s to 1998, peaking around late 80s/early 90s, and now moving toward simpler melodic structures (regardless of MDs)?
  
  Re your comment on pOtRip pAdadi, I did go back and listen to the three pieces on the cassette. I think I hold a tighter definition of thematic development than you do. These three versions do constitute variations on the theme, but not a full thematic development, IMHO.
  
  Thank you for your response to my observations on andhi mazhai pozhigiRadhu. I think the interludes stop with Exposition and don't go much into Development. Fabulous piece as it is, but holds kernels in the preludes & interludes which could be developed into a full-fledged composition akin to a symphony (the lyrics,as we all know, are extremely disposable.)
  
  sari, neenga unga guru--harmony kadhai sollunga.
  
  
• From: Mux (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Wed Apr 15 13:14:05 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  
  Pal:
  As mannaru has said, I should have said "polyphony" in my discussion. I understand your point about vivadhi swaras etc - basically forming the harmonic part of Carnatic music.
  
  But I point was since polyphony as a concept cannot be performed by a single source, the concept cannot be as close to an individual as monophony.
  
  Thanks for the reminder in the other thread :-)
  
  Mux
  
  
• From: pal (@ x101-145-87.unreg.umn.edu) on: Wed Apr 15 14:23:05 EDT 1998
  
  ok, ithanai peru kEttachu. ..
  
  naanum paattu kathukkarEnnu keLambinean... My guru is also my lab senior. But he comes from a very traditional carnatic music family from Mysore. His forefathers were court musicians in Mysore kingdom. ( So, dont underestimate him because of me! :-) )
  
  He was very informal also and I used to recommend lot of TFM songs to him. Of all the songs, I played to him he liked the pani vizhum malarvanam a lot. He even asked me to play it again to verify that it does fall in chalanattai scale. Now, we all know the song is catchy.
  
  We also know that chalanattai is not so popular ragam in the concert halls. It is generally blamed that there are lot of unharmonious swara combination in this mELa ragam. What impressed my guru was that the amazing way in which the scale had been harmonized. By properly constructing the jumps. Introducing the sudha gandharam very selectively as if it is an accidental!
  
  In a reverbrating environment or a multi-string intruments like santhoor demands a sense of harmony. I appreciated the way rag poori is played in santhoor. What do say, guys?
  
  
• From: pal (@ x101-145-87.unreg.umn.edu) on: Wed Apr 15 14:32:57 EDT 1998
  
  I feel I could add some more technical information : ragam chalanattai has chatrushi rishabam ( ri3 ) ( I am sorry I said this swaram as suddha ganthaaram... in keyboard both these swarams come to the same note. So pardon me... ) anthara gandharam ( ga3 ) suddha madyamam, chatrushi dhaivatham ( dha3 ) kAkali nishAdham ( Ni 3 ). For a western perception the scale is highly chromatic, right?
  
  In handling the Ri3 along with Ga3, care should be taken because these notes decide whether it is a minor or major chord. Switching between these two very often doesnt sound nice at all...
  
  care should be taken in general while playing the half-tone incrementing notes very often because, sounded together they sound as disharmonious as a major seventh chord.
  
  Any difference of openions?!
  
  
• From: mannAru (@ ns.arraycomm.com) on: Thu Apr 16 00:07:23 EDT 1998
  
  Pal:
  
  OnnumE puriyalE! ulahathulE! :(
  
  mannAru
  
  
• From: mannAru (@ ns.arraycomm.com) on: Thu Apr 16 00:21:25 EDT 1998
  
  Kanchana:
  
  Regarding the development of TFM, i agree with u that since TFM developed from the plays, the dramatic background influenced it to be monophonic, in fact vocalist was given more importance. So music was only pure additional component.
  
  As it grew, some thing like orchestration was
  added by the inevitable MSV-TKR combo. IR took
  it to the heights. But polyphony and counterpoints were used rarely since there was no motivation and requirement for the MDs. Actually if there was some demand in the market there might have been some growth in that direction. Unfortunately our society was satisfied with the good lyrics and melodies. Once competition comes then MD's tried other things and the scenario is much better now.
  
  neenga 'punnagai mannan' kEtteengalA?
  
  'andhi mazhai' kettEn. Neenga solRadhu mihavum sari. ovvoru interlude-um has the potential for further development. May be Deva will help TFM oneday. Deva fans! i did not mean it offensive.
  
  He is infact doing service to TFM very much!
  
  mannAru
  
  
  
  
• From: pal (@ x101-145-87.unreg.umn.edu) on: Thu Apr 16 10:30:55 EDT 1998
  
  mannAru,
  your observation about orchestration in TFM is slightly inaccurate, I am afraid. G.Ramanathan ( first meastro of TFM?! ) has tried many of the orchestration and counterpoint structures in the days of MKT itself.
  
  MKT groomed GR and they were very close friends also. Later, after the 'real bad days' in MKT's life, almost everyone turned him away when he wanted to make films. So, he started his own film co. in Trichy I think and produced a few films. One of them was Amaravathy. Listening to the song 'yAnai thantham pOlE, piRai nilA', I get a singular experience. It is the best orchestrated Abheri I could ever hear!!!!! It had all the essential features of a chamber orchestra. May be not the same instruments, but in spirit. Almost fifty years after that people think they have done something wonderful in Abheri! what a pity!!!!!!!!!!!
  
  
• From: Mux (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Thu Apr 16 17:22:55 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  
  Kanchana: About Andhi mazai. Yes I too feel there is so much scope in this song. I could identify one particular place where in the foreground the theme is developed melodically in violins and in the background the original theme is being palyed in a lesser volume in piano. Based on this I feel Raja's symphony would have a very different feel because of the melodic aspect. In fact I do feel there is additional melody in lots of musical pieces in his songs which are supposedly having a Western Classical bend.
  
  Can you also come forth with the reasons and basis for thinking that this song has so much scope ?
  
  BTW, one digression regarding Andhi mazhai. A few months back my wife was in India and I was unusually early in returning back from work to home by around 3-4 PM. I was listening to a casette and it started playing "Andhi Mazhai".
  From that point on I got so much hooked on to the song, I did not want to hear any other song at all. I kept rewinding it so many times, and but for the discontinuities during dinner, I kept listening to the same song till 2 AM.
  
  Of course, there is so much in that song !
  
  Pal:
  I could not understand the "chord stuff" in your dicussion. (waiting for the next class). But I could get to understand rest of it. Remember SLR's (Srirangam Lakshmi Ramakrishnan) discussion on "Mogam ennum theeyil" from Sindhu Bhairavi set to Kanagangi ragam - he had given a similar discussion on how Kanagangi having a vivadhi at ??(which swara) and how carefully the sancharas were arranged in order to not traverse that particular swara.
  
  Mux
  
  

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