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Tamil Film Music Cateogories

Topic started by Mukund (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on Tue Mar 10 17:54:59 EST 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I want all of us to participate in a healthy discussion to come up with reasonable definition of different kinds of music cateogories - thereby shedding more light to unexplored areas of Tamil Film Music as it is becoming more and more "international" :-) by the day. This process is simply to increase the knowledge base.

Cateogories that come to my mind are Carnatic, Western Classical, Jazz, Fusion, Flamenco, New age etc. -- :-) so many terms and so little definition.

As for Carnatic and Western Classical, their foundations lie basically in melody and harmony based approaches to music.

What are the foundations of other kinds of music ?
Are they based on the use of certain kind of instruments ?

Since TFM-DF consists of varied set of people with inclinations towards different musical tastes as well I am hoping a lot of them to contribute for this article

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Mux (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Thu Apr 9 16:45:06 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Pal,
  
  No, this wasnt what I was mentioning. What I was trying to express was the fact that a not neccessarily well trained Karnatic vocalist can immerse into the music whenever he feels - but in other cases there is so much of paraphrenalia associated - I mean so many instruments and singers etc.
  
  Of course, there are the single instrument concerts in WC - like piano concertos etc. If I really zero in on my question - Is singing in WC done only in operas ? (which seems so much beyond ordinary people, it not at all light in any sense)
  
  I feel singing is the most spontaneous act of musical expression and in carnatic if you feel like singing some ragas one can go ahead sing and therefore enjoy spontaneously.
  
  
• From: pal (@ c45208.ece.umn.edu) on: Fri Apr 10 19:41:27 EDT 1998
  
  mux,
  
  It is not true that a 'not necessarily well trained carnatic vocalist can immerse into the music whenever he feels'. During initial carnatic lessons many gurus discourage practicing vocal without guru's presence! But, I get your point:
  
  Whenever a carnatic musician feels like creating music, it is a lot easier for him than for his WC counterpart. As you have mentioned yourself, this problem doesnt exist for soloists like pianists and violinists.
  
  But performing with the orchestra ( for them ) is indeed a seperate kind of enjoyment and creation which has no parallals! :-)
  
  Singers are just another instruments in WC. As you have rightly said, singing is the most spontaneous expression for us. IMHO, that is one of the main reasons why WC doesnt evoke much enthu among the youngsters and in general for most of them ( westeners ). WC's popularity is on the decline among masses.
  
  On the other hand, it has been again and again proved, that if presented properly indian classical always appeals! But surprisingly, indian classical is also great on the instruments.
  
  
• From: sankaran (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Mon Apr 13 04:11:00 EDT 1998
  
  One very relevant point here.In S.A.Rajkumar's very first film Chinnapoovae Mella Pesu,there is a song starting with film's name sung by Jayachandran.In this song SAR has used a lot of violin and choir sort of orchestration.I was very much impressed with the way he had mixed this kind of WC with Indian classical(this song was based on some Indian classical raagaa,I dont know what).But SAR flattered only to deceive.He has not come up with this kind of music after that.
  
  
• From: mannAru (@ ns.arraycomm.com) on: Mon Apr 13 22:32:54 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Sankaran,
  
  Are u the same Sankar from BITS
  and still in MIEL?
  
  Sorry! question sounds very different. But u will
  understand the tone i guess.
  
  Send mail to gana@arraycomm.com
  
  ganesan
  
  
• From: mannAru (@ ns.arraycomm.com) on: Mon Apr 13 23:36:38 EDT 1998
  
  Pal, Kanchana:
  
  I listened to the instrument piece in "punnagai
  mannan" recently,. They list as "computer music".
  
  I think it can be taken as a micro symphony
  with a definite theme and 1 counterpoint.
  (piano and church organ are playing the
  counter points). First starts with a rhythm of
  percussion and clap. Then computer plays the
  outline of the melody. Then piano and voilin
  join. The theme is slowly developed
  by the piano and church organ. (One difference
  drums is used very much here.)
  
  After the climax, violin, organ and piano play
  the melody once again and close the show.
  
  It fits very well in the movie when kamal
  expresses his love to revathi.
  
  Can u listen to that and let me know ur comments.
  
  Thanks
  mannAru
  
  
• From: Kanchana (@ ww-ta04.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Apr 14 13:55:58 EDT 1998
  
  Kramer....er......Mux:
  Good to see your continued enthu for the topic, and glad to hear about your jazz experimentations. Will come back later to discuss your theory question on major/minor.
  
  Pal/Mux:
  My 2-cents worth to your discussion on how it's "easier" to sing or listen to eastern music versus western classical.
  Isn't eastern music predominantly melody+rhythm driven, therefore very monophonic and consonant, and therefore, very hummable/singable? Some of the major western classical pieces, on the other hand, have polyphonic texture (harmony & counterpoints) making it not so easy to hum or sing. Even the word harmony is misleading since the harmonized sounds could be consonant or dissonant. Such complex, "layered" musical arrangements presented thru a large orchestra may not be appealing to all at all times; the dissonance may take some time to get used to, also.
  You can apply your discussions above to TFM, loosely. If we do a longitudinal, cross-era analysis of music compositions in TFM, we can see the music going gradually from monophonic to polyphonic textures, with the musical arrangements and orchestration getting more complex and being at their most intricate and elaborate in the late 1980s/early 90s (IMHO). I think an analysis of iLayarAjA's compositional equation from the start of his tenure to now may give us some interesting findings in this direction.
  
  Pal:
  Re your comment on pOtRip pAdadi from Devar Magan: do you think we could have a good thematic development within a 5-minute song in the real sense, where a tiny musical theme is blown up into complex piece? Would like your perspective on that.
  That song is the best maNvAsanai song in TFM, IMHO . The basic melody and the orchestration in some parts of the interludes remind me of grAmIya villuppAttukkaL.
  
  mannAru:
  I'll watch that scene in Punnagai Mannan and get back to you.
  
  Here's another strange thought I'd like to share (which I've shared in another thread a while back):
  I feel that each interlude of the song andhi mazhai pozhigiRadhu has at least one distinct theme which can be thematically developed further to bigger pieces similar to separate "movements" in a symphony. Comments?
  
  
• From: Mux (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Tue Apr 14 14:41:10 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  
  Kanchana:
  You have put it exactly IMO, as to why it may be easier to sing/listen eastern as against the western music. In fact, this brought up a different question I had sometime back. I was thinking along the lines that since we have only one vocal chord (I am not complaining :-)) it is impossible to get the superimposed signal of 2 diff voices from one person. Therefore, the concept of harmony can never come as close to an human being as the concept of melody, isnt it ??
  
  I have heard Andhi mazhai so many times but since you sought to look at it in a different viewpoint I have to hear it today to comment on that.
  
  In fact, I have thought so many times about the richness of melody in AnnakkiLi era as against richness of orchestration of dhEvadhai era in IR's music. And assuming listening to melody is more natural for us, it requires us to ascend to another level in listening to a well orchestrated music. And this represents learning for us. I am sure western music will similarly tend to shed its harmony base and gravitate towards melody too.
  -Kramux ??
  
  Mannaru, Sankaran: Let me pitch in my ideas after I hear these songs.
  
  Mux
  
  
• From: pal (@ c45208.ece.umn.edu) on: Tue Apr 14 15:26:45 EDT 1998
  
  mannaru,
  I will keep quite until my big sister(s) and brothers express their openions about the theme in punnagai mannan.
  
  kanchana,
  When I was talking about melody rich eastern ( I want to take the credit all by myself... so, Indian ) music only in the sense of recreation or enjoying by creation.
  For listening, the western works are equally, if not more pleasing and great. I feel, IMHO, Western music is like this because of necessity. Westerners think making music as a team effort and so we see a big team in front of us. This is because westeners have commercialized music long time back. They made most of their techniques and music for large audience. On the other hand, indian music always remained for personal listening and personal creation. So, the techniques used in the indian music ( like gamagam etc. ) are not for large audience ( until of course the advent of PAS ). Precisely because of the same reason only I feel, western music is much more methodical.
  
  This is why it is very difficult for a western listener, who is used to such a flawless team performance, to listen to indian music. The poor recording quality and the ambient noise in the indian concert halls and the lack of perfect co-ordination between, say, percussionists irritate him first before he even attempts to get the meaning of this music. I have seen people who are able to 'come over' these hurdles finally get addicted to this music for the rest of their lives.
  
  continuing...
  
  
• From: pal (@ c45208.ece.umn.edu) on: Tue Apr 14 15:45:59 EDT 1998
  
  The music of the drama houses during the early years of the TFM has influenced it a lot. The music of the drama is a cross ( somewhat :-) ) between the western idea of group performance in front of the large audience and the indian melody roots.
  I heard ( read! ) in the days of MKT, there were lot of people who compared him with people like ariyakudi and scolded him for his mediocre performance. But I feel the huge popularity of MKT only should have triggered such criticisms. Anyway, I feel MKT caters to an entirely different market. He had this extra burden of coordinating with other instrumentalists like organists. Also he has to sing much louder than other carnatic singers, I feel.
  
  These drama people still maintained the ragams and indian std.s, but attempted to perform as a team. I feel this is in general is the scope of much TFM. maintaining our rich melodic tradition while doing as much as possible in the orchestration.
  
  regarding the 'pOtRip pAdadi ponnE': there are two ( or three ) versions of that song in the cassette itself. The first one in the film is the one with the villipaattu style grAmiya paattu. The one SPB sings has rich choral accompaniment, right? I remember the theme was being as BGM also, although I dont remember it exactly.
  
  About the anthi mazhai pozhigirathu :
  you are right. It has distinct themes in the interludes. They are developed to some extent in the song itself. But, we feel it could have been developed some more. I also want to ask you this. DOnt you feel many such interludes and preludes of IR could actually be elaborated little more rigourously? May be he was never let to do so because of commercial pressures.
  
  
  

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