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Raga of song please

Topic started by Gopal Prasad (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on Sat May 17 07:42:45 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

Note: You may want to refer to the list of raga based film songs before posting a query.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Ramaswamy Gireesan (@ fast-old.fast.de) on: Fri Dec 3 12:56:07 EST 1999
  
  Unni,
  
  sorry for the delay in replying to your earlier posting. At the risk of letting this thread end up as another IR vs ARR quarrel I would like to reply as well as I can to your posting.
  
  >How many AR songs in
  >sindhubairavi, - 2
  >maand, - 2 1/2(Nila Kayhiradhu)
  >kaapi, - 3 or 4?
  >abheri - 2 or 3?
  >desh - Only Kaatru Kuthiraiyile in Kaadhalan, >Alaap in Kadhal Rojave which becomes Kaafi!
  
  Hmmm... how many films has ARR worked for? He uses Maand quite frequently, if you had noticed more carefully. Take the Nadhaswaram piece before chinna chinna Asai begins, or the interlude in 'pAkkAdhE pAkkAdhE' (gentleman), or some of the background pieces in Duet. If you consider that it took him such a long time to give a full fledged piece in Maand or Abheri, one cannot help but wonder whether he was practising these ragas, testing the waters to see if the raga is acceptable to listeners.
  
  >As for the Maestro, he has Numerous numerous >Keeravani's, Sindhubairavhi's, Mohanam's, >Hindolam, Suddha Dhanyasi, Dharmavathi, >Madhyamavathi, Natabairavhi, Sivaranjani >e.t.c.....He had done many Rare pieces, but in
  
  That is exactly my point. Only with difficulty you would come across two keeravanis or two madhyamavathis of IR that sound similar. (One exception to this rule, I grudgingly admit, is the raga Kalyani, but it is a raga that every kuppan, subban in film music resorts to, so IR can be pardoned if his kalyani sounds similar to somebody else's, if not his)
  
  >Have you not listened to the variety in >Rahman's:
  
  >Sri Ragam in Theendai,
  >Vasantha/Basanth in Padayappa,
  >Vaasanthi in Mudhalvan,
  >Natabairavhi for Nenjinile,
  
  OK, I havent heard the recent hits of ARR in mudhalvan (except for the reethigowlai piece) but to me the song nenjinilE sounds definitely like sindhu bairavi. Consider also his frequent use of kapi in interludes etc.
  
  >Suddha Sarang for Malargale,
  
  Again, this is highly debatable. I think it is basically a mixture of a couple of ragas, which applies to a lot of his songs.
  
  >The list goes on Mr Ramaswamy, as good as >Ilayaraja did his Ragas, so has Rahman, it >appears that you just havent heard all of >Rahman's work, or is it that you dd not identify >these Ragas?
  
  A bit of both, I would say ;-)
  
  Regards
  
  G.Ramaswamy
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.23.252) on: Fri Dec 3 14:08:13 EST 1999
  
  Unni:
  
  Just because an MD scores ina particular ragam it need not deserve attention. Only if the song, has a tune that is impressive it deserves attention.
  
  Use of charukesi in "rang de" is one of the examples. The song is extremely repetitive and I find ARR at a total loss for churning some good lines in the ragam.
  
  In contrast, while listening to (1) aadal kalaiyE (2) maNamaalaiyum manjaLum (3) raagam thaanam pallvai (4) vasantha mullai pOle vanthu (?) (5) kaathalin deepam ondru (6) dhoodhu selvathaaradi ,
  I get the real feel for the ragam. The reason is entirely due to the complexity of the tunes.
  
  There is one accusation I have been seeing in the forum very regularly. IR has not used "maaNd". This is not true. He has used "maaNd" in the interludes of "kaathal Oviyum kaNDen kanavO". The point of contention by many is that ARR uses a lot of maaNd - a rare raagam. IMO, it is no more rare :-). Sticking to one rare raagam and producing compositions in and around it just reduces its non- availability and does not enhance the greatness of an MD.
  
  Take the case of theeNdaai - a fantastic song with a lilting tune. this is the kind of melody that is expected. In similar lines are the songs "sahiyae", "oru naa oru pozuthu (though it sounds strikingly similar to paal vadiyum mugam ninainthu ninainthu),"nenjinile" ( a great tune with interludes (sans the choral portion) spoilt to a considerable extent by an arbitrary thagara dappa beat - I doubt if it is in some form of kaanada). I just look forward to such goodies from ARR.
  
  
• From: MeeNdum (@ dhcp-css-consult-12.lg.informix.com) on: Fri Dec 3 14:57:35 EST 1999
  
  MS, IR used Maand in "Aalappol velappol aalam vizhuthu pol" from Yejaman. Prefix a Misra if you like. Actually, a true composition is when the raaga latchaNam is totally smothered and a new dimension is given to it.
  
  
• From: Unni (@ infocache.netline.net.uk) on: Sat Dec 4 09:52:29 EST 1999
  
  "Only with difficulty you would come across two keeravanis or two madhyamavathis of IR that sound similar" - IMO, it is very hard to get these Ragas to not sound similar, but that is purely my opinion, hence I can catch so many Ragas very easily, almost without thought! :)
  
  Examples:
  Compare the old Malaiyil Yaro with the new Alai Meethu, both in Suddha Dhanyasi, what a similarity.
  
  Compare Ther Kondu and Mayile Mayile in Hamsadwani, don't these have similarities?
  
  There are plenty of Keeravani's of IR that sound extremely similar, I shall listen to some and quote later.
  
  Nenjinile is inspired by the Nadhrudhaani Thomdhrudhaani piece of Ravishankar, from his Minor Ragam's Album. It is most certainly in Natabairavhi. It does sound like some Misra Kaanada or Sindhubairavhi sometimes, but that's a stamp of Rahman.
  
  As for Malargale, I felt that it was a combo of Saraswathi and Hameer Kalyani, but I saw a Saptha Swara Porgramme, where the husband of Anuradha Srram, who is a Hindustani Classical singer, proved that it was Suddha Sarang, as he actually sang the swaras.
  
  MS: For Rang De, I agree that it was a tad repetitive, but for the new generation of listeners, this is the way to get across the basics of the Raga :) Also, who says that the flavour of the old songs that you have mentioned has to be repeated? Modern beats and instrumentation bring this kind of music.
  
  Ramaswamy, Rahman practiced his Abheri in the film Daud, the song being Shabba Shabbam which was a pure Abheri and came before Kannodu! By the way, I was wondering why you hadn't classed the wonderful piece 'Idhalil Kadhai Eludhu' by the Maestro in Lalitha Ragam under the Rare IR? Or the Metti Oli song in Jog? Shouldn't that be under the rare bit? I'm curious.
  
  
• From: Unni (@ infocache.netline.net.uk) on: Sat Dec 4 10:02:08 EST 1999
  
  Of course, I would like to add that there is no one to beat the Maestro in terms of usage of Ragas and also for depth of knowledge. He will always be remembered for that.
  
  At the same time, I feel that Rahman cannot be put down for trying his best, with the knowledge he has and also for trying to use Ragas in a way to please all of India, as opposed to just the South.
  
  He uses Charukesi as Kesh, but then has to appeal to the North Indian crowd - Remember what type of music they are used to other that Rahman.
  
  What other South director has been able to achieve a place in the North Indian hearts? What other South director or Indian director for that matter has been able to appeal to Andrew Lloyd Webber, for Ilayaraja's greatness, Andrew never gave him a call, neither did he ask for him to Musicalise one of his famous musicals!!!!!
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.24.6) on: Sat Dec 4 11:39:45 EST 1999
  
  Unni:
  
  who says that the flavour of the old songs that you have mentioned has to be repeated?
  
  My posting was:
  
  Only if the song, has a tune that is impressive it deserves attention...I get the real feel for the ragam. The reason is entirely due to the complexity of the tunes
  
  So where did I say it has to have the same flavour of the oldies ? I just said, I want to feel the ragam even if it is given a different dimension.
  
  Coming to "new generation" tunes (looney tunes will be my choice if allowed to choose between the two :-) - Most of the hindi songs sound like impositions. a classic eg is "goongat ki aar se" and a recent one is "saajanji gar aayE". In case of ARR it is "padyappa" and "rang de". A listener gets irritated once he gets to hear the same line a thousand times in the same song. This just shows the inability of the MD and deteriorating tastes of the junta.
  
  May be Webber made a mistake. Inspite of his greatness ,he is human too (Just kidding) :-)
  
  
• From: Unni (@ user145100.dial.netline.net.uk) on: Sun Dec 5 07:51:32 EST 1999
  
  MS: Just one thing, you did 'catch' the Charukesi in Rang De then? :) What does that say about 'somehow' feeling the Raga? :) It's not supposed to bring out the Raga like Aadal Kalaiye. At the same time, Rang De is a very foot tapping number with a very different sound, repetitive it may be but so are many other numbers, but become hits don't they?
  
  As for Webber, he's practically on top of the Musicians list so who are we to judge him ;-) Someone I know actually mentioned the Maestro to him, but didn't get very much of a response, apart from acknowledgement of his existance :(
  
  
• From: Unni (@ infocache.netline.net.uk) on: Sun Dec 5 07:59:26 EST 1999
  
  MS: By the way, Andrew had mentioned that he had heard 'bits' of his music in some of Rahman's and the Maestro's work!
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Sun Dec 5 22:07:35 EST 1999
  
  got me well, uNNi :-) But one good point to be noted is that I DID NOT "catch" it until it was specified by you - It is true. I just discarded the song as another junk number of ARR (like shakalaka baby) because of its repetitiveness.
  
  As a musician Andrew may be on the top but my statement was about his humanness :-)
  
  
• From: Unni (@ user153249.dial.netline.net.uk) on: Mon Dec 6 16:01:59 EST 1999
  
  MS: What's un-human about picking Rahman above all other Indian composers?
  
  I must say that for such a discerning listner like you, not catching the obvious Charukesi in Rang De is very surprising to me!
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 216.32.18.74) on: Tue Dec 7 13:18:47 EST 1999
  
  Ms: Playing the raga in a different way is the key to a composer, just repeating the same carantic notes of charukesi is nothing to be great (raja has done this few times)-- his abogi is good example of it -- nothing new --
  Lets us take charukesi azakiya tamil magal ival from ritchakaran is in charukesi, neyum nanauma in Guravam has charukesi --- will you belive it.
  
  I feel arr handles raga somewhat differently than others.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.23.144) on: Tue Dec 7 18:59:15 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth,
  thanx for that piece of info.. it did'nt strike me till now, u are right 'azhagiya thamil magal' has charukesi in it.
  
  

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