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Comparing Ravindra Jain with IR

Topic started by RJ Uncomparable!!!! (@ 205.188.209.42) on Sat Oct 5 23:27:06 EDT 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

IMHO, a genius composer of most difficult and consummate melodies is Ravindra Jain in Indian films. Actually the most brilliant structure came from RJ. I don't know if IR has composed melody structures as seen in RJ songs like "Sunayna" & "Yeh Goriyan Only Karthi Raja's "Krishna Krishna" is only one Tmail song of that complex structure. Anyone recognizes any other? Also, RJ gives a lot of ambience in the songs, all songs of Chitchor for example. His Prelueds and interludes are also extremely amazing, especially use of flute is on par with IR's genius. And, therefore I find a comparison with IR worth discussing. (I find that HFindustry ignores RJ's genius because he gave most songs to Yesudas!)

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: isaiosai (@ 68.97.168.128) on: Mon Oct 7 14:37:16 EDT 2002
  
  av, good sensible posting...a mild one. Keep it up! Some losers (singers) do complain.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Mon Oct 7 17:10:53 EDT 2002
  
  Is this comparison with a Hindi MD a ploy by the Hindi Prachar Sabha to make people, especially IR fans, listen to/learn Hindi ? :)
  
  
• From: Awe (@ 65.69.45.160) on: Mon Oct 7 17:23:51 EDT 2002
  
  You don't have to compare RJ with IR to praise RJ. Typical indian mentality. Praising someone need not be achieved through pulling down someone else. IR fans will come out scores of fusion music and brilliant BGMs that no Indian MDs have done till date. Let us belittle IR in the name of praising RJ. Fans are highly amateurish these days.
  
  
• From: RJ Unc (@ 205.188.208.37) on: Mon Oct 7 19:18:03 EDT 2002
  
  Naaz has discussed objectively. but, Awe and kiru, i mean what is the point like. i am not putting down IR in any way. I am just saying one national MD is only RJ and though he has not much variety and least prolfic, he was very consistent, burst into the scene same time as IR and is the only MD whose has given the most popular songs and the most number of popular tunes ever. For eg: all 4 songs of Chitchor are sung even by Tamilians. RJ also composed in mal films, one movie i remember has all 4 songs super hits, super tunes! (kavya bhavana; thaali poo, peeli poo; asrathavalli bhavani; swayamavara subadhina) To give you my honest opinion, there is no match in Hindi films for Ravindra Jain, closest was Salil Chowdhry with Anand and Choti Si Baat for Chitchchor. RDB /SDB /LP or others has not matched a Chitchchor. I would not call Bobby, Abimaan or Yaadon Ki Baraat or anything has that ethereal wholesomeness of Chitchor. So, one MD i find worth elevating (though the entire bombay film ind does not really acknowledge the genius, i believ ) nd comparing to IR.
  
  RJ is perhaps the only other composer in the same league as IR in terms of spectacular musical ideas in both vocal and intrumental parts.
  
  
• From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63) on: Mon Oct 7 20:40:00 EDT 2002
  
  Awe -
  
  " The one common factor (if it can be said) between RJ and IR was the "indian" ethos of their songs. RJ was given to simplicity with an "earthen" (man vasanai'nnu sollalam) in his compositions. Both musicians are known for their celebration of much neglected Folk and Aboriginal traditions in film music. "
  
  Where is the "belittling" and "amateurish" aspect in this? Do you read what I read?
  
  
  
  
• From: av (@ 132.206.52.150) on: Tue Oct 8 10:00:00 EDT 2002
  
  Naaz:
  
  Racist? Well I am here categorically stating that IR is the best MD. I am categorically stating that ARR is today the best MD In the North. I am praising your goddess VJ, as also PS,SJ,KJY,SPB et al to the hilt. Of course, I am racist! How amusing! I have praised people like MSV, KVM, and Sudha Raghunathan (whom u chose to degrade, coz IR took her and not Your Goddess for Ivan).
  
  Again, why did you ignore my statement about Geeta, Suman having got along well with the sisters? My remarks about Malayalam film industry?
  
  Notice I did not call KJY as "crap". I said his remarks about the HFM industry were crap. Please learn to take things in correct context.
  
  About Asha, yeah right, I have a complete recording in Asha's voice when she was singing Marathi natyasangeet in the mid 50s, about how journalists have tried their best to create a divide between the two of them. Again, you ignored my statements about Asha having sung almost as many songs as Lata, with even those Mds whose favourite was Lata. Try the exercise on Madan Mohan, Shankar Jaikishan , L&P, Kalyanji Anandji, Chitragupt, Khayyaam, Hemant Kumar, Roshan and many more, will you?
  
  Salilda, an ace Lata admirer has worked with atleast 10 other female singers. You had better look up the interviews of Geeta Dutt and Suman Kalyanpur, and how they have praised the sisters. There is Kavita Krishnamurthy too, who feels the same. And yes, she (as well as Suman) are South Indians.
  
  I did not "degrade" M S Subbalaxmi at all. I have listened to a very large number of her concert recordings. But I maintain that when she sings in the North Indian languages that I know, she doesnt carry the native flavour in the least. This is not called degrading. Degarding is what you have done to the Mangeshkars. To even Ilayaraaja. To many other people. To Sadhana. And to posters who have disagreed even slightly with your opinions.
  
  You dont have to be "born" in a particular period to know about it. Even you werent "born" in the 50s. I am writing about the things I might have read.
  
  Also if you were to ask a classical expert about Raju Bharatan's raag identification abilities, you will soon realise how much of that book is meant for showing off his "authority". The number of unsubstantiated claims in his book is staggering. Typical of all Mangeshkar detractors.
  
  Now that you dont have any solid points to argue, you will call me racist. I remember a very nice quote by Russel in this context.
  
  
• From: av (@ 132.206.52.150) on: Tue Oct 8 10:03:08 EDT 2002
  
  Lastly, RJ just cannot be compared to IR. IR has achieved far far more - in versatility and quantity. These things are so obvious that it is almost an axiom.
  
  Well, Ravindra Jain has never ever composed anything like SDBs Munimji and Naujawaan. Or RDB's Dil Padosi Hai (private album) or Chhote Nawaab. Salilda, Chitragupt, Naushad, Anil Biswas, Madan MOhan Hemant Kumar have contributed far more to HFM.
  
  Though RJ was a fine MD, it all rests there. IR was a sheer genius, like Ramanujan (yes, another South Indian :-)) or C V Raman (and yet another one :-))
  
  Three South Indians praised in one post - height of racism! :-)
  
  
• From: av (@ 132.206.52.150) on: Tue Oct 8 10:05:56 EDT 2002
  
  Lastly, Naaz - Shammi Kapoor movies often had music by Shankar Jaikishan. Dev Anand has had a long term association with the Burmans. I wouldnt expect such mistakes from a film critic!
  
  Kavita Krishnamurthy and Hariharan, Mahalaxmi Aiyyar and Shankar Mahadevan are south Indians. But I am a fan of their Hindi songs. You may wish to look at a long list of private albums by Kavitha that I had posted on an earlier thread.
  
  
• From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63) on: Tue Oct 8 10:30:46 EDT 2002
  
  AVR -
  That was funny. Thanks.
  
  
• From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63) on: Tue Oct 8 10:31:23 EDT 2002
  
  AVR -
  That was hilarious. Thanks! :-)
  
  
• From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63) on: Tue Oct 8 10:32:45 EDT 2002
  
  I laughed first. Funny.
  I laughed again and again on re-reading. Hilarious.
  (In case you were wondering about the double post :-))
  
  
• From: Lord LabakuDas (@ 12.162.224.5) on: Tue Oct 8 13:36:50 EDT 2002
  
  Naaz,
  Sirichathu Pothum.:-)..Pathil Sollunga..
  
  
  
• From: s0 (@ 163.181.250.2) on: Tue Oct 8 15:14:21 EDT 2002
  
  A translation for AVR:
  Lord LabakuDas said
  "Naaz,
  Enough laughter.:-).. Reply (to AVR's post)."
  
  This is interesting enough to say "Sabash, Sariyaana Potti (Good Competition : Translation For AVR)". Yeah, Naaz. please do reply.
  
  
• From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63) on: Tue Oct 8 15:16:12 EDT 2002
  
  Lord Labakudas -
  
  Yepadi Ayyah Badhil Solvadhu?
  
  Firstly, I did not introduce the Mangeshkar Monopoly bit in this thread. I concentrated on RJ-IR similarities. Then came the whole HFM politics bit - in relation to KJY. To which there was a dismissive response saying KJY talks "crap" (very insightful and critically poignant term that :-))
  To add to it, other singer names were introduced - all to pooh-pooh their experience with the Mangeshkar Monopoly/HFM politics. Inge Irukkura Yaravadhu Adharkku Maraga Yedhavadhu Sollamataangala-nnu Kathirundhaen. Onnum Kaanom.
  So, I only added this "fact": LM couldn't tolerate ABs success - hence "politics" in HFM was not just "race/ethnicity" based (although with regard to TFM artistes in HFM it was an added factor) but the deeper roots were located in insecurity and lack of ethics. Odaney Paththikkichchu! :-)
  Now, when I pointed out HFM history and gave some bibliographical references, such as eminent Film Music (and Cricket!!) Raju Bharatan's biography, that was once again dissed as being flawed!!
  Here's how baffled I was on reading AVRs response, and laughter was the only way (for me) to escape this utter paeththal...
  
  This is how the argument jumped the Mangeshkar monopoly issue/HFM politics parameters (incredible when you think of it.):
  
  Raju Bharatan - who has written a neutral and unsparing
  biography on LM gets slammed as a "detractor" - and AVR calls into
  question his (RBs) classical music credentials!! It's like talking about somebody's
  driving skills and pointing out how they were a lousy painter!! He is Biographer. Which part of Biographer are you having a problem wrapping your head around??
  I am always stupefied by such logic defying leaps in argument. AVR excels in such.
  Then VJ is introduced as "my goddess" (another critically astute and poignant term :-))
  Apparently, we dissed Sudha R in the VJ thread because IR did not call VJ for
  Ivan....Hello, he hasn't called VJ since Punnagai Mannan....So what's
  that got to do with anything?? How did we get here?
  
  How does one conduct a reasonable exchange with anybody who is determined to not just refute facts, but betrays a complete lack of rudimentary analytical/referential skills?
  Podhumada Sami. Nee Aachchu Un Argument Aachchu Punniyavane-nnu Odhugavendiyadhu Than! :-)
  Adhanalethan Sirichchaen.
  
  
• From: Lord LabakuDas (@ 12.162.224.5) on: Tue Oct 8 15:38:06 EDT 2002
  
  avr,
  Podhum Yosichathu..Pathil Sollunga..:-)
  Helping s0,
  A translation for AVR:
  Lord LabakuDas said
  "av,
  Enough Thinking.:-).. Reply (to Naaz's post)."
  
  This is interesting enough to say "Sabash, Sariyaana Potti (Good Competition : Translation For AVR)".
  
  Special Thanks to Copy & Paste facility in Win 2000..:-)
  
  
• From: i(sai)o(sai) (@ 68.97.168.128) on: Tue Oct 8 15:46:21 EDT 2002
  
  av, nice posting again. You have been quite polite despite some grave disrecpect towards you. As is evident to all, you are not the racist. Wonder who it is?;-)
  
  

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