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Ilayaraja's comments in Kumudam

Topic started by Karthik (@ 164.164.128.13) on Thu Feb 8 07:26:45 EST 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

IR has, in an interview in the latest Kumudam (also covered in the front page with his snap), said that 'He has wasted 25 years of his life in film music'.

I dont know how others look at it, but I see it as a very harsh statement of total disloyalty. Its tamil film music that has given IR all the attention and praise he is receiving now. If he's a genius in composing WC, that, in any way doesnt affect anybody in TN. What affects the common man in TN is how good IR has composed in his tamil films.

IMHO, it was a statement totally unwarranted and shows utter disrespect on IR's part towards his craft.

Karthik

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: uv (@ 134.113.201.48) on: Thu Feb 15 15:27:04 EST 2001
  
  friends small typ 'so when you use chords
  u can play' it should be 'you cant '
  sorry for the typo
  
  
• From: Ramki (@ 64.244.40.35) on: Thu Feb 15 15:36:37 EST 2001
  
  About 7 years before in Ravi Bernards 'nerukku ner'(Sun tv) when subbudu was asked who is the better MD, his reply was 'iLaiyaraja isaiyil pazhaiya nedi, ARR isaiyil verum seyarkkai naagarigam , nam indhiya vadhyangaLai theLivaaga ubagoyippadhu ippodhikku Deva mathram thaan.violinum veenaiyum avar paadalgaLil viLaiyadugiradhu'
  Ravi Bernard was literaally shocked and so were the viewers
  
  
• From: doubter (@ 208.142.210.30) on: Thu Feb 15 15:46:19 EST 2001
  
  Ramki
  
  I too remember seeing that interview. But how did violin become and 'indian vaadhiyam'?
  
  
• From: devadas (@ 216.34.244.74) on: Thu Feb 15 15:55:07 EST 2001
  
  "Ravi Bernard was literaally shocked"
  
  was the mike poorly wired for him to be "literally" shocked:-)
  
  Jokes apart, even I remember that interview and the disgust evident in Rabi's face when he heard that. Subbudu also repeated his deva manthiram in other mags including kumudam
  
  
• From: kooththan (@ 198.73.152.100) on: Thu Feb 15 16:25:30 EST 2001
  
  Good.
  
  Now, we have established that Subudu is not biased. It's jut our bias that does not allow us to accept his comments as valid.
  
  ....later
  
  
• From: Fliflo (@ 146.186.113.254) on: Thu Feb 15 16:28:09 EST 2001
  
  Topic distracts from Ilayaraja's comments on Kumudam to Subbudu's comments on Ilayaraja. Raja escaped and Subbudu got in.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.208) on: Thu Feb 15 17:54:48 EST 2001
  
  kooththan: It probably establishes that subbudu is NOT biased. But it doesn't establish that he is NOT senile, or that he is qualified to comment on TFM. I am sure he is clueless that Deva copies left, right, and center and churns out creations. He is probably clueless about the jazz chords used, whether it is IR, ARR, or anybody else for that matter. He is clueless about sound engineering or layered parts/harmony. He is NOT aware that ARR has used violins as appropriate, veerapaandi kOttaiyilE, minnalE nee vandhadhEnadi, Bombay theme music, for example.
  
  I will grant him that he knows Carnatic fundamentals, but that apart, as far as TFM is concerned he is just thiNNai la ukkaandu veththu pEchchu pEsara 'perisu'- that's all. It is easy for anybody to say "IR is good". That by itself doesn't make that person knowledgeable in the nuances of film/light music, which has come a long way from the Bagavadhar, SG Kittappaa music which Subbudu grew up with. He has a flair for writing with sarcasm, I will grant him that.
  
  IR is NOT great because Subbudu said so, ARR is NOT inferior because Subbudu said so!
  
  
• From: Comment (@ 63.225.173.137) on: Thu Feb 15 18:00:27 EST 2001
  
  Well said Rajag.
  
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Thu Feb 15 18:53:09 EST 2001
  
  Re: Strings and ARR. Yeah, if at all he uses them, he will use only the synth version of it and its usage he will make sure is different from how it has been in film music before him. This is because ARR's strategy is built on a 'novelty' platform so he will not use the same techniques. He does not want to sound like the 'old-fashioned MDs'. And Strings is something that IR and prev MDs used to a great extent. He knows he has to avoid it to sound different. I am not musically knowledgeable to comment on his usage of Strings. But I dont think he is especially good at it. IMHO, ARR is a package not necessarily a specialty in any particular dept. Again, this is just a opinion not a judgement or certificate.
  
  Anyways, to be fair to the old man. Do you guys think we are getting good melodies these day (last 5 yrs) ? This is his point. People are churning out fast/pacy/chirpy numbers thats it.
  
  
• From: comment (@ 63.225.173.137) on: Thu Feb 15 19:06:21 EST 2001
  
  Mostly people dont know to identify the sounds. Most of the strings sections of arr are from natural instruments. Ganesh kumaresh and few other well known musicians play many of the strings parts for him. His usage of strings is well contained and minimal, he does not goto strings for all the score he does.
  anyway I dont want to start a war. I trust my ears. We can easily identify a synth and natural instrument. Leave the sounds alone, just one question does a synth plays by itself?.
  
  
  
  
• From: kooththan (@ 198.73.152.100) on: Thu Feb 15 19:25:27 EST 2001
  
  RajaG,
  
  How do you 'KNOW' so much about what Subudu knows and what he doesn't know?
  
  If you "KNOW" these 'facts', then I agree with you.
  
  If you don't, then I reiterate my previous point 'It's OUR bias, not his, that is to be questioned here'.
  
  "IR is NOT great because Subbudu said so, ARR is NOT inferior because Subbudu said so!"
  
  Well said. I agree.
  
  But, if what he said does matter very little, then why do we dedicate thread after thread to his comments?
  
  Is it because we love 'vetti pechu' as much as the perisu on the thinnai? :-)
  
  
  
  Fliflo,
  
  You are right. I suggest we officially change the topic of the thread:-)
  
  ....later
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Thu Feb 15 19:36:00 EST 2001
  
  'comment' I think I also can identify real instrument vs synth. I brought this up because I thought that was one of the ways ARR gives a 'different sound' and avoids direct comparison. So cant discount this factor like you want to 'leave the sounds alone'. In the three songs that rAjAG mentioned, minnale and bombay seem to be synth. Correct me if I am wrong. Also, I am much more informed than to think 'synth' plays by itself.
  
  
• From: Swami (@ 63.97.162.92) on: Thu Feb 15 19:42:46 EST 2001
  
  He is NOT aware that ARR has used violins as appropriate, veerapaandi kOttaiyilE, minnalE nee vandhadhEnadi, Bombay theme music, for example.
  
  I think the instrument was Cello and not Violin.
  
  
• From: kk (@ 198.4.92.5) on: Thu Feb 15 20:17:11 EST 2001
  
  Subbudu, didnt say anything direct about ARR. He is just talking about general trend. This includes IR's sons also. So, why assume its targeted on ARR alone. By quantity, ARR makes only 5% of TFM.
  
  As far as I know, subbudu is the greatest critic in TN music. He is qualified for his job though its film music. But, I dont know why he is so harsh on ARR, though he makes decent music even by classical music standards. This may be because, ARR atleast does something to talk about. (unlike pure crap by deva, sar etc).
  
  Before talking about subbudu's qualification, how many of you have ever read his criticisms to know how good he is?.
  
  
• From: Fliflo (@ 130.203.168.46) on: Thu Feb 15 20:35:38 EST 2001
  
  I feel Perisu pesaruthle artham irukku. I agree with kk and kooththan on this. Subbudu is not an ordinary perisu. He knows in and out of music. He must have interactions with almost all MDs and knows much better about each and everybody's music. I feel he certainly sits on a better bench than most of us here. I totally agree with Subbudu, just not because he was supporting IR, but because of his vast experience (karai kanda kilam) and other big musicians respect him.
  
  
• From: Karthik S (@ 164.164.82.22) on: Thu Feb 15 22:44:10 EST 2001
  
  Knowing in and out is alright but statements degarding IR and IRR while praising Deva (as RajaG had out it aptly, already) does remind me the senility factor. Or as someone mentioned, he's just a shrewed old man who knows how to stay in the news by making the right (or controversial) statements!
  
  --Karthik
  
  
• From: comment (@ 63.225.173.137) on: Fri Feb 16 00:40:13 EST 2001
  
  He knows in and out of music....
  
  Depends on what music, I am 100% sure subudu dont know what is polyphonic music or sound layering...etc.His ears are trained for monophonic music only.
  
  
• From: comment (@ 63.225.173.137) on: Fri Feb 16 00:41:34 EST 2001
  
  karthick has a valid point...simply he wants to stay popular....kumudam is hyping things.
  
  
• From: genuine musician (@ 202.9.149.14) on: Fri Feb 16 00:46:50 EST 2001
  
  In these songs as well as so many other songs A.R.R. has used a full fledged string section i.e violins,violas,cellos,double bass et al.
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Fri Feb 16 00:48:21 EST 2001
  
  well one thing i want to clarify. i too remember the neerukku neer with subbudu. It has become a general, what should i say..mmmm...yes...'slip' of public of not connecting a criticism/statement with its environment/situation which made to give that. i remember it was about usage of instrument subbudu was talking then. he was giving comment on some carnatic vocalists and pakkavaadhya kaarargaL then the focus came to TFM and present music in TFM. In that time subbudu was praising Deva for using Indian instruments which I think is a valid comment. Here i want to clarify one thing regarding violin. Though violin is not an indian origin instrument carnatic(Tamizh) music has adopted it with certain modifications. Hence what subbudu was talking was usage of that violin it is 'as used in carnatic(tamizh) music'. We all know IR is the master user of violin. Still subbudu said so because IR uses violin in WC method also. I too feel Deva uses veena more than ARR or IR in his music. Please keep in mind that the issue here is not whether the tune is original or not; the issue here is not whether the instrument usage is copied or not; the issue here is usage of indian instruments for which subbudu was saying deva (at present) is better than IR and ARR. Whats wrong in it??
  
  Again coming back to criticism of yennavaLae song by subbudu. The comment he made was two 1) on the song's raaga 2) Unni sining. I don't have to explain about point 2) as others have given earlier also it seems unni has found the criticism healthy and accepted. its great that Unni took the criticism constructively, which is healthier for a carnatic artists. because from the mouth of subbudu we come to know that many of the carnatic artists were not ready to take any criticism on them, positively. Now coming to point 1), the comment was yennavaLae is kedharathhukku saydhaaram(meaning, the song is a damage to kedharam raaga). Do we know when subbudu said this? When many of the media based critics of both film music and carnatic, said that the song is a great song in pure kaedhaaram. No doubt, the song is a great song, a milestone in ARR's music. But was that a pure kaedhaaram song as praised by those critics? Nay! said subbudu. He was critical on their praise, he said the song is not at all pure kaedharam. ARR did not said it is a pure kaedhaaram song, only these media critics said that. Being critics they should not have told like that when it is not a pure kaedharam song, that was subbudu's point. So he said so. Whats wrong in it?? If we read 'Classical Ilayaraaja' article by Srirangam LakshmiNarayanan Raamakrishnan, he(raamakrishnan) goes one step ahead of subbudu. He says he could not place the yennavaLae song in any of the raaga. So just by reading this line can we say Raamakrishnan is damn against ARR (or for that matter any TFM MD) and say that Raamakrishnan has not heard TFM songs at all??
  
  Subbudu, basically WAS a carnatic and bharathanaatyam critic. Should he keep restrict to that alone? Shouldn't he expand his bandwidth?? Infact it was good for TFM that a critic of a classical music was considering TFM also worth for criticism. had he thought TFM as waste he would have brushed aside TFM as a whole. Agreed that if he did not know/hear about TFM he should not criticise. Subbudu too knows that. He infact is listening TFM ardently, just like us. Because in many of his TFM criticisms, be it positive or negative, he quotes the song. He then analyses TFM with some classical music and then gives his opinion. Infact he is giving analysis(of course criticism) for Hindustani music also and writes left and right about some wrong things done by those artists and compares their style with our(carnatic) artists and points out good and bad in both. He does not write so frequently about Hindustani classical because he is not that much big expert in it. His hindustani criticism comes as second or third i.e. next to TFM criticism. It shows that over the years(around 60+ in music criticism) he has expanded his bandwidth of criticism purely because of his growing knowledge and interest over those areas.
  
  let me stop here my too much blah! blahs...
  i apologize for distracting you too much.
  
  
• From: SL (@ 63.253.8.110) on: Fri Feb 16 01:52:24 EST 2001
  
  Subbudu's main concern in life has always been, loyalty to a particular rAgA within a song. PERIOD. While singling out Deva for special praise in another interview, the reason he quoted was that Deva does not bring in foreign notes even in the BGMs/counter melodies. This has appeared to be his main look-out most of the time, his 'kEdaraththai sEthAram seithu vittAr' comment on the 'ennavaLE' song, standing testimony to that.
  
  Kiru, ARR's violin usage in 'nEtru illAtha mAtram' , 'puththam puthu boomi vENdum' have been commendable.
  
  The violin piece in 'minnalE' that takes the song to the pallavi after each charaNam is not synthetic. But this song is heavily inspired by , (especially the placement violin and pan flute pieces)............
  
  
  

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