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Is IR comparable to Great Western Classical Musicians in Terms of Music Complexity and Quality ?

Topic started by siva (@ makom.fkm.utm.my) on Wed Jun 3 03:56:28 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

IR is long known to be a great composer.But how far does he differ or on par with great western classical composers like Bach,Betthoven and Mozart....?

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: S.Suresh (@ dwarpal.wipsys.soft.net) on: Thu Jun 4 00:41:39 EDT 1998
  
  From where I left off....
  
  Another thing about the form of music is that in WCM, the symphony's have a longer duration, lasting an hour or more whereas film songs have around three minutes. So comparions are fruitless. If at all we need to compare, then we must compare it with rock or pop or jazz compositions and musicians who have around the same time to finish the song. So saying that one particular song is equivalent to a symphony is as senseless as saying that a symphony is greater than any song composed in TFM.
  
  I think it is time we got out of this obsession of trying to prove that Raja or Rahman is as great as a WCM composer. Music is a multi dimensional thing. The variety is so much that if you open your ears you can hear lot of good music from almost any part of the world. I have heard some traditional Japanese music and it is excellent. I have heard that Indonesian music is also excellent. Unfortunately we cant get it here in India. So listening to lot of music will ensure that you no longer think that WCM composers are the best. They were greats in their own right but so were a lot of others. As Geetha mentioned, our own carnatic music greats had compositions which are unbelievable.
  
  I think Raja fans should not put in lot of hope on his Symphony. Symphony is not our form. If Raja does a good job of it, fine. If he doesnt, dont mind. I dont think we need to make Raja popular worldwide. Remember, the taste of each nation is different. How many can appreciate the Suddha Saveri of "Idhu Oru Kaadhal Mayakkam" or the Reethi Gowla of "Chinna Kannan". Even north Indians cannot appreciate this fully. So dont even think of the rest of the world. I dont care if Raja and MSV are not popular around the world. They have given music which has been a part of our growing up and which we can never forget. That is all that matters.
  
  
• From: S.Suresh (@ dwarpal.wipsys.soft.net) on: Thu Jun 4 00:52:24 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Nithin,
  
  Dont worry about hurting me. I dont get hurt easily.
  
  I have spoken about Rahman when I tried to explain that each form has to be seeped in its own culture to be successful. The reason why I bought in Rahman is, though he borrows a lot from western pop music, he understands the taste of the TFM audience. Hence he is able to give music that appeals to the ears of TFM audience. My contention in that paragraph was not related to originality. It was related to understanding the audience taste and success. With this explanation, if you read the post again, I am sure you will appreciate ARR's name there.
  I have made no claims to ARR's originality.
  
  I appreciate your point about originality. I missed it in my post. If comparisons were to be made from a point of originality, I too agree with you that IR has given lot of original compositions. I would definitely include MSV-TR combination as being very original. What surprises me about IR is his ability to come up with one original tune after another, just when you thought that he must have exhausted all his stock. The Jayachandran song from "YaathraMozhi" was mindblowing. So was "Sharadendhu" from Kaliyoonjal. Then suddenly comes "Meetatha Oru Veenai" from Poonthottam. When it comes to originality, IR is right up there with the best. Your point taken.
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ 205.147.245.41) on: Thu Jun 4 09:54:17 EDT 1998
  
  There is no question that IR is the greatest composer of the 20 th century.I think this is a safe statement to make.His creativity is simply a marvel.what stuns me is his ability fuse two forms(Western and Indian) of music and bring out something fascinating.I think the main forte of raja is his ability to pick chords and fuse it into his compositions .Almost all his songs have some terrific chord progression.This part of music is highly complicated and needs terrific sense of ingenuity.I have not heard any composer, which includes the western greats, use chords as effectively as IR.This could probably be b'cause of his great mastery over the fundas.I am learing guitar(PA,USA) and sometimes take some compositions of IR to my teacher who was totally awetruck.We recently were trying to figure out "Maharajanodu" from satileelavathy.The first interlude was such a sweat.Its unbelivable that he was able to fuse in such a tricky chord progression with a lot of counterpoints into a classical carnartic ragam.
  I would'nt compare him with Mozart,bach or thyagarajar from a standpoint of muscial composition but from a perspective of creativity he defintely is up there with those guys.One can argue that the 20 the century was more material driven than the 19 th hence the dearth for musical creativity .Mozart,bach and thygarajar were from the pre-industrial age(renissance) which had a much more congenial env for musical creativity. Also IR had a precedence and had to be absolutely orginal to standout which did'nt exist in the Mozart days.I am not taking anything away from Mozart but its just that he was born in a much more relaxed world.This to an extent also explains lack of originality in the carnatic world.Its very rare to hear a unique ragam being experimented in a classical perfomance.Its the same old kalyani and thodi which holds sway.This I attribute to the competition, hunger for money and to an extent devotion to the profession.
  
  
• From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Thu Jun 4 10:07:05 EDT 1998
  
  Nithin :
  
  No offence meant. I am a great fan of Raja and consider him to be one of the greatest composers dead or alive. No qualifications necessary. But I stop short of calling him GOD. I am not questioning or criticising you calling Raja GOD. I just wonder at the power of Raja's music.
  
  And like you, my favourite Raja's music is not his carnatic compositions or his folk tunes but the way he dazzles with his orchestrations like in enakkaha kAthiru, ullAsa paRavaigal etc.
  
  I was just pointing out that just like thyAgarajar has been deified into a god by people who love his music, there are people who consider rAjA to be a god.
  
  Can anybody write a bad review of thyAgarajar krithis and get away with it ? Can anybody criticise at all ?
  
  Such a sort of thing is happening to rAjA's music right here in this DF.
  
  Comparing artistes is a necessary evil. On one hand you need yardsticks and standards of reference to evaluate an artiste's work; on the other hand you try to compare two different individuals from totally different cultures separated by 250 years of human evolution. Is it possible ? Extremely difficult to say the least.
  
  
• From: Nagarajan Padmakumar (@ gate.themoneystore.com) on: Thu Jun 4 19:20:07 EDT 1998
  
  I have listened to many symphonies of MOZART, BEETHOVEN, SHUBERT,BACH..etc, I get same kind of enthrallment, feeling when i listened to RAJA's NOTHING BUT WIND and HOW TO NAME IT? If any World Level Media could bring this Unfortunate Composer's compositions to the limilight of World Level Music, probably we will not having such frivolous doubts like what we have now. Also we will not try to compare RAJA with any other composer, as we don't to comparison between MOZART and BEETHOVEN. It is as simple as that. Now we can start suggesting that How we can bring this genius to the world's attention?
  
  From a Good music listener.
  
  
• From: Ramaswamy Gireesan (@ m42.m59.big.ac.at) on: Thu Jun 4 20:42:13 EDT 1998
  
  Hi!
  
  Couldnt resist contributing my two paise to this thread :-)
  
  Anand, I wouldnt entirely agree that the western world was less materialistic in earlier times. Mozart (the example cited here often) was under tremendous pressure (from his father and other members of the family) to earn money. He had to become a 'performing monkey' at the age of five. Wrote his first major composition at the age of 8, and spent almost the first twenty years of career travelling around from court to court, playing and composing for money. So bad was his situation that he often fell out of grace with his main patron, the archbishop of salzburg. His greatness comes from the fact that he managed to compose such sweet and enchanting music inspite of all the pressures.
  
  pg, there ARE music critics who have given bad ideas about the compositions of Thyagaraja. My cousin once cited a recent publication (by one Subramaniam, if I remember right) that had blasted the attitude of the saint, I believe. One of the contentions was Thyagaraja was not humble at all - if he was humble, why did he mention his name at all in some of the compositions? The same book also blasted singers like Mani Iyer, GNB etc., highlighting their failings in certain aspects of carnatic music.
  
  And I think Suresh is right, when he says IR (or for that matter any composer) doesnt have to prove himself by creating music that appelas universally. For me, listening to mottai's music is (very often) pure bliss, and that is what matters. I cannot (and possibly never would) derive such satisfaction from WCM or Heavy metal (uggghhhh). Jazz, Somalian folk music (ever heard it? sounds dangerously close to carnatic :-) ), hindustani and carnatic (obviously) music are more in my line. And since IR's music falls into these categories, or combines these to a certain extent, it is very appealing.
  
  Leave alone WCM, does IR have any compositions in pure Hindustani? I dont think so. At the most he might tend to use ragas common to hindustani and carnatic - the reason is that a complete deviation from s.indian music would drive the people out of the theatre hall. ARR doesnt dare that either, for 'Hai Rama' in Rangeela, which sounds Hindustani alright, he preferred to use Pantuvarali, which is familiar to TFM fans too.
  
  ARR did use Samba music. (Samba Samba in Love birds). The song was a craze but for a short time. Where is it now? Has it overtaken chinna chinna aasai in popularity?
  
  Before I digress further - one should keep in mind that familiarity is what breeds affection for one kind of music or the other. Ask a westerner to listen to carnatic music - they would get confused at the best. Ask an indian villager to listen to some symphony - he would get perplexed at the massive use of instruments. In short, you need a certain mindset to enjoy each music.
  
  So let us not worry whether IR would be able to keep up with WCM composers, or whether his music will be appreciated worldwide. He is the best at what he is doing - namely composing TFM, combining the best elements of indian classical music, western orchestration techniques and folk music. I think that is what matters the most.
  
  Regards
  
  G.Ramaswamy
  
  
• From: raja m (@ ww-tc03.proxy.aol.com) on: Thu Jun 4 22:41:06 EDT 1998
  
  IR's music has enthralled/facinated/affected all of us for years and will continue to do so for generations. His creative mix of all kinds of indian classical, with folk and western classical music and superb background scores has made our lives enjoyable and will continue to do so for a long time ( for centuries which is the case of all WCM and CM greats is a question I am not able to answer that too in DF it is always a highly emotional issue :))
  
  If we are to compare his ability to create complex compositions we should compare his music output of pure "western classical music" - to the compositions of WCM greats. The music and release of his Symphony album is a good start. How it is received by a genuine music lover from any part of the world , and review by WCM gurus of his album will be a very interesting development for all of us.
  
  

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