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Illaiyaraja' music and style already in other parts of the world?

Topic started by Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on Thu May 7 22:48:50 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Friends, this is an ambiguous quesiton. It actually a rhetoric, or it begs the question? I am not sure. However, I want to ask you Raja die-hards if you have found anything similar to Raja's style of music and Raja' s tunes in other parts of the world? I believe I have and I want to make certain soon enough.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 22.minneapolis-06.mn.dial-access.att.net) on: Sat May 9 10:22:18 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Nithin,
  
  I did not talk about Indian Music at all , I just gave an example to say there are billons of score around, it does not mean I am talking against Indian Music!, (of all the persons do you think I will do it - There is no better music than our Indian music.
  
  You are confused!
  
  Srikanth
  
  
  
• From: M. Diwakar (@ j54.bkj23.jaring.my) on: Sun May 10 00:38:57 EDT 1998
  
  Let us accept for the moment that 'By the rivers of Babylon' and 'Ulagam endrum ore mozhi', are "EXACTLY" alike.
  
  A popular Hindolam krithi by Thyagaraja is "Saamaja vara gamana". A less commonly sung one is "Neerajaakshi Kamakshi" by Muthuswami Diksitar in the same raga. And those of us who have heard both would readily admit that, even if both are Hindolam based, we would not go so far as to say that they are "EXACTLY" alike.
  
  The point is that the raga might be the same but if the arrangement of the song ( amaippu ) is identical too, it smacks of plagiarism ( and the adage goes - plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery :-) ).
  
  I am willing to accept that parts of songs in the same raga might be similar - as opposed to "EXACTLY" like - but if someone were to tell me that they are EXACTLY alike and that is purely coincidental, I would need to take that with a keg of salt.
  
  
• From: raja m (@ ww-ta02.proxy.aol.com) on: Sun May 10 16:22:25 EDT 1998
  
  Nithin/Srikanth:
  
  When talking about MIB, are you referring to the song by Will Smith or any other song from the soundtrack or the background music from the film? - and what is IR's corresponding song?
  
  
• From: Bharat (@ dsi.mids.com) on: Mon May 11 10:39:43 EDT 1998
  
  Nithin:
  
  Good Lord! I go away for the weekend, and come back to find a mini-thesis waiting for me. I seriously appreciate your passion for music man!
  
  "So, I defend my argument about Illaiyaraja being highly original as far as grammar, presentation and every other aspect of his musical creativity is concerned. "
  
  Yup, I am a huge fan of his, and totally agree with you here. But, by the same extension MSV evolved his own grammar too, bringing TFM out of predominantly Carnatic-based tunes, so much so that he’s called "Mellisai Mannar".
  
  " Therefore, Elfman whose musical efforts does not mostly reflects traditions of his musical predecessors of his land, could not have brought in his originality from Western classical musical grammar… This quality speaks out for Illaiyaraja's distinctive greatness (genius), originality and absolute accomplishments that cannot be emulated, unless simulated!
  
  I disagree. See, the point I’m trying to make here is not that Elfman did not copy from Raja. He may well have. Just as likely, he may not have. I’m just trying to say that in this permutation-and-combination world of musical notes, it is possible that the similarities may be coincidental.
  
  You mention that Illaiyaraja has never cared to produce similar musical patterns/themes. I beg to differ. The minute one’s compositions (however brilliant) come to be identified as "Ilayaraja-esque", it means that he has produced similar patterns and themes.
  
  BTW, Batman is by Elfman. That’s the film that made me look out for this guy.
  
  You also say that until Ben Hur and Lawrence of Arabia movie themes came, there has really never been a noticeable feature of experimentation or innovativeness about Western musical forms and derivates. Maybe you’ve not listened to Alex North’s great scores of the ‘50s. But that is not appropriate for this forum, so I’ll stop here.
  
  Maybe the reason we think different is because you feel Raja is the greatest ever. I feel the field of music is too broad to crown one man king. Phew, thus endeth my own mini-thesis.
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc36.pr.mcs.net) on: Mon May 11 21:37:53 EDT 1998
  
  Raja
  
  I was not referring to the song in MIB at all! It is the opening 'title' score in that movie.
  
  Bhaskar
  
  Many thanks for your response. I am very passionate about Raja, because he continues to astound me with almost each one of his songs. In terms of numbers, he has captured my most creative energy levels and my imaginations about 3000 times (say there are about 4000 songs he has composed).
  
  There are others, who have come up even more brilliant scores at times, maybe if I include Bach's (Tacato and Fugue in D Minor or Beethoven's Emperor Concerto) or Beethoven and a few others or that beautiful Elman's Batman score or Ravindra Jain's a few classic songs, I would definitely remark, hey, Raja could not do that and perhaps cannot do that (for that extraordinary spark of brilliance).
  
  However, these exclusive composers have got my attention just once, perhaps a few more times ( in terms of their number of times, they have produced their extraordinarily brilliant compositions). This is where Raja clears high of every giften person in this Universe.
  
  The numbr of times that Raja can overwhelm you with his instant variety and prolificity is beyond humanly possible levels, to my knowledge as of today. As I said, there are Vangelis', Maurice Jarre's, Ennio Morricones (he is someone special ), Mancini's, Michael Jacksons (again, someone with an allt-time killer album) but they all did a few and stayed in the winter cold. After all, a few sparrows don't make the summer!
  
  (In the meantime, I will look for Alex North's scores!)
  
  
• From: S.Suresh (@ dwarpal.wipsys.soft.net) on: Tue May 12 03:06:22 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Nithin/Bharat,
  
  I do agree with Bharat's view that the field of music is too broad to crown one person as a king. I also agree with Nithin that Indian skies have many stars. There is no doubt about this. As Bharat pointed out, MSV has also got TFM out of carnatic music. His contribution is also enormous to TFM. I havent heard lot of WCM composers but if there was one man/woman who has to be crowned king/queen of this vast kingdom called music, my vote would go to Saint Tyagaraja. But that is another track.
  
  I have also heard a lot of music which is pretty original, some compositions of Led Zepplin, Cream etc. I feel that there is a lot of music in this world (not necessarily WCM) which is original, attractive and maybe better than some of Raja's great creations. But Nithin has a point when he says that no one has sustained himself for so long as IR (except Saint Tyagaraja). SD Burman may be one who was anywhere near this sort of durability, but IR is in a class of his own when you consider that he has spent more than 20yrs in the field and can still come up with YathraMozhi or Kaliyoonjalu. For our own selfish reason we should hope that he continues to innovate for a long time to come.
  
  
• From: Bharat (@ dsi.mids.com) on: Tue May 12 13:34:27 EDT 1998
  
  Nithin:
  
  Was that a typo, or was it indeed a reply to "Bhaskar"? Coming back to the topic, you have listened to Raja's music since the time you were in your knickers, right? That is a long time to identify with, dissect and analyze one person's music. Also, Raja's music is a popular form of expression. Unlike, say, Bach which requires a little more erudition. And how long have you been listening to him, compared to Raja? Maybe that is why you could not find as many pieces of music by others that capture your attention.
  
  Another reason is that other composers just do not compose(or have not composed) that many tunes. I do not know how comparable scoring a two-hour concerto is to scoring for a three-hour film. But I would venture that they are quite different endeavors.
  
  Suresh:
  
  I completely agree that for someone who's been as prolific as Raja, he still amazes with his tunes. But the issue here is not prolificity.
  
  What I was trying to say was that the reason for this topic being started (Illaiyaraja' music and style already in other parts of the world?) could be due to the heavy influence of music from "other parts of the world" in Raja's music.
  Once again, I'm emphasizing "influence", not blatant plagiarism.
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc36.pr.mcs.net) on: Tue May 12 19:54:28 EDT 1998
  
  Bharat
  
  I was wearing Jatti, if I remember vaguely during the time of President Jatti. Nowadays I wear Boxers. Pretty good, try it out!
  
  Sorry for the typo, I meant Bharat. I started listening to Illaiyaraja maybe when I was 16 years of age, until then it was all western classical, country, pop (those golden days) Bach, Beethove, Mozart, Lizst, Chopin, Haydn, Mussorgsky, Dvorak, Baroque age music of Vivaldi , Pagganinni, even a few contemporary or early 20th century classical composers, Igor Stravinsky, Glass and many others mostly in parallel to my passionate love for Raja's music. I do not deny that Raja's style has a great deal of inspiration from Western style of orchestration, in fact, I have seen him write his music in western notation, which is a highly disciplined method.
  
  Even after all that attachment to various musical forms, I must say IR is beyond compare. The Maestros have defined various classical forms, while IR has also created a new form within a system of music, which is film songs. I will disagree that he has influences from around the world. It is just not his psyche, you have to analyse this man a little more in detail, there is only scope for originality, originality in style, in melody, orchestration, presentatio, innovation and idiom. A class act such as IR will be the most dissatisfied man ever if he had to borrow. For his music to be presented, he has to use orchestra, and there is only one final arrangement possible and that is definitely going to sound western, there is no other way to arrange violins, trumpets, percussion, wood instruments and get sounds as if the sounds must have come from some other instruments of some other universe. Do you see my point. It is the ulimate way of speaking a language, and people who put the effort to sound right, to do it the ultimate manner often end up with the right answers within themselves, they do not have to seek inspiration.
  
  By the Way, I checked some sites on Danny Elfman and Eric Johnson. If you do not believe, Danny is a master of new and strange sounds (like ARR) and has sought inspiration from music from all over the world!!!! He is considered the Undisputable king of Musicians. BTW, I used to wonder why MIB did not win the oscar and I was surprised to understand that he was sidelined for Titanic's success!!!
  
  Eric Johnson is a acknowledged king of guitar who has introduced new sounds from outside!!!
  
  So, our discussion is on interesting platform, however, I am putting IR at the top of the Pedestal as a Stellar Monument, who is becoming a source of inspiration to many people today!
  
  
• From: Madhan (@ 202.41.117.55) on: Tue May 12 23:00:05 EDT 1998
  
  THIS IS A SMALL DIGRESSION :
  
  Dear Nithin,
  
  I have been regularly going through your responses - i am really amazed at your grasp of the Western classical music - i am a layman when it comes to WCM - having come from a village background, I find it extremely "pullaricchufying" to find someone who had been hooked onto WCM showering praises on IR - normally, I find people listening to Guns & Roses, Dire Straits ,Pink Floyd etc., who literally look down upon Indian music in general, especially South Indian music, even more particularly , South Indian film music - especially Raja , whom many are still referring to as a "black, oily skinned Dravidian " -
  hence my surprise at your liking for IR's music without any air of " yenakku music theriyum " kind of inflated arrogance.
  
  nice to come across people like Nitin.
  
  

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