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Raja's Dabba Songs!

Topic started by Srikanth (@ proxy1.dpn.deere.com) on Mon Sep 14 13:55:31 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hi,
I want to list out "Dabba Songs" of Raja.
This will prove even Raja has composed "Dabba songs". I have huge list, which I will adding soon.

Velai Eadum Illamal Benchil Irukum
Srikanth

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Biju (@ 136.181.195.25) on: Mon May 12 13:18:59 EDT 2003
  
  how abt malayoram mayiley velayadum kuyile?superb kalyani..right?
  
  
• From: pennathur (@ 12.46.179.254) on: Mon May 12 15:26:44 EDT 2003
  
  Mythila,
  
  Film music is as a rule not improvisational - Indian classical is entirely improvised. Which is why the best film numbers are the ones that can be improvised. And that is the great thing about Rock'n Roll and its big brother jazz. Chuck Berry didn't sing Roll Over Beethoven for nothing! Rock composition for long considered an oxymoron is finally earning its due as did Jazz Compostion about 40 years ago. Counterpoints and tonal shifts are not very challenging when you have a basic melodic track going. It is difficult when you have a large arrangement to work with - not because it is difficult to imagine - but because it is so easy to generate that unless you put it to good use; it makes no impact or simply distracts. I remember IR's counterpoints becoming more than a little predictable; while they are great they can sound excessive. Why an Indian classical concert sounds so great is because even if you heard the same artiste everyday delivering the same ragam it would sound different. It is bewildering in its depth and variety. The songs that I have mentioned by our elder composers are all improvisational ones. On the other hand IR's numbers that I compare with are virtually unimprovisable; being good set-pieces. There's tons more to Western Classical than clever arrangements. Take a look at any Western Classical review by a good critic (in The Times or NYT etc.) You won't hear them talking about counterpoint, inverse counterpoint etc. Since there are quite a few people here who know a lot more about music in general on this site; there is no need to belabour the point. So when I judge (for what my judgement is worth) the classicism of a film song; I compare it with classic Indian or Western compositions. By that token as I repeat many IR Indian classical numbers being set pieces come off second best against more robust ones in Malayalam; or by the Elders. Contrary to popular belief about Indian classical being a strait jacket; it is enormously versatile. The Thiruvasakam site seems to convey as much. As I pointed out earlier; ARR's compostional style springs from his strong background in live jazz/rock performance and some of his best numbers are the ones that can be improvised freely. Witness his minor classic of recent times - Vaan Nila - from Kadhal Virus; it would be electric when performed live with scope for plenty of solos by keyboard, guitar, saxophone and the drums. I believe it stands right up there with Rock's all time classic "Stairway to Heaven" or Santana's "Soul Sacrifice". Compare it with "Thappappa'da Thappa ennada" by TMS and "Kadaloram..." in Chinnavar a choral jazz-rock number (starring Senthil, Kovai SaraLa etc!) - feel the sandam in TMS's number - and compare it with the lack of sandham in "Kadaloram..." As for how challenging it is (or is not) to compose a classical number why is it we are going gaga over MKT; DandapaNi Desigar; Vedanayakam Pillai compositions (the first classical Tamizh Christian devotionals that explore the divitnty of Jesus without once mentioning his name). When TMS sings "ULLam Urugadaiya" or when Sirkazhi sings "Tiruppati Malai AaLum.." or when you hear "Sriranganathanin.." (a modern Tiruppavai as if AaNdaL sung it herself) or when you listen to Baiju Bawra "Tu Ganga ki Mauj Mein..." or the even classier "Man tadpat Hari darshan ko Aaj" which is exemplar as far as HindoLam/Malkauns is concerned - you know why Indian classical music is an endless ocean. Dammit! Our best classical musicians may practice everyday but never rehearse and yet produce such scintillating stuff!
  
  
• From: mythila (@ 137.237.13.20) on: Mon May 12 16:13:36 EDT 2003
  
  I agree that there is not much scope to play around with IR's compositions.
  You have said it yourself ,pennathur.
  It definitely calls for a lesser effort to create a generic base class, leaving others to improvise than in IR's case,create a final class with no scope of improvising, meaning it is perfect in design.
  
  
• From: pennathur (@ 12.46.179.254) on: Mon May 12 16:46:16 EDT 2003
  
  Mythila,
  
  Perfection is easy and actually quite boring! That's why Mom's cooking (even at the risk of offending my wife) beats Michelin 3-Star stuff any day. Dunno which MD said this, "UngaLukku pidicha pattu edu," "Thalattu"!
  
  
• From: pennathur (@ 12.46.179.254) on: Mon May 12 16:47:20 EDT 2003
  
  Mythila,
  
  Perfection is easy and actually quite boring! That's why Mom's cooking (even at the risk of offending my wife) beats Michelin 3-Star stuff any day. Dunno which MD said this, "UngaLukku pidicha pattu edu," "Thalattu"!
  
  It takes awesome creativity to build something that can be improvised. It is pretty easy to mechanically work out the parts of a song.
  
  
• From: av (@ 132.206.72.96) on: Mon May 12 17:47:07 EDT 2003
  
  An interesting website this:
  http://www.geocities.com/lessonsfromraja/
  
  Lessons in classical based film music from the Maestro!
  
  
• From: Saint Ilayaraja (@ 192.19.195.27) on: Mon May 12 17:51:44 EDT 2003
  
  Improvization comes with Manodharmam and its upto the individual. To state that IR's songs cannot be improvized is a reflection of one's imganitative powers. IR songs are easily improvisable but the beauty of his creation is the natural flow of thought.
  Almost all his compositions have been created in one sitting and to rip it apart is a tall order. I hate to improvize on somebody else's creation. Its a creation period. There is IP attached to it. Carnatic musicians improvize to a point where the original composition is masked and the actual emotions it was set to convery is lost. I take a strong exception to this.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Mon May 12 18:09:20 EDT 2003
  
  Pennathur, looks like you have digressed a lot from your original point. From your silence, I understand that you havent listened to the numbers that I have mentioned. Atleast, pl. give "Isai arasi ennaalum" a hearing as it could help revise your opinions.
  
  
• From: pennathur (@ 12.46.179.254) on: Mon May 12 18:13:36 EDT 2003
  
  Saint Ilayaraja,
  
  You obviously have not heard a nadaswaram recital in the open in Vedaranyam or Tiruvarur - or Kumar Gandharva and Bismillah Khan. Improvisation whether through the back-breaking Ragam Thanam Pallavi or Dhrupad (which is without swaras and pure voice) or swaraprastaram and varnam (in dance) is the pinnacle of Indian music. While one might want to sing a kriti true to its form - there is no such restriction when it comes to alaapanai, neraval, gamakkam, taan and gat. There isn't much fun listening to a film song that is full of clever scales if these don't sound spontaneous. The ability to improvise and create compositions that can be improvised is the true mark of a musician. Songs that are incapable of being performed with a novel touch are impersonal. If I can't add anything to a song when I sing it (hower badly) there isn't much in it for me.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Mon May 12 20:45:29 EDT 2003
  
  Come on, Pennathur, a person of your knowledge should know the difference between indian music and western classical music. All your criticism about IR's songs apply as much to WCM as to his compositions. Come on, creating counterpoints, is easy ? give me a break. It is as much tougher as improvising or providing a place to improvise upon, IMHO.
  Western classical music has scope for experiments (tempo, arrangements) but surely it is not like Indian classical music. If Indian classical music is improvisational 'linearly', then WCM is improvisational 'concurrently'. If somebody is trained in indian music, they would surely find writing something like counterpoint difficult (IMHO, many MDs in India, find it so, IR does it effortlessly). The opposite is also true. They are two different schools of thought. It is completely wrong to pitch one as superior over other. You are totally missing the point, if you do not accept, that IR is basically, trying to do fusion. So either the gamakams are dropped or they are 'composed'. The singers are not supposed to improvise for this very specific purpose.
  When IR is not doing fusion, the singers are given a free hand. 'ivan' is a good example, Sudha was asked to sing with enough freedom.
  
  (BTW, recently on SwapthaSwarangal improvised on 'athOrathilE ala maram').
  
  I can give more examples, but it takes so much time to do that and I dont like this discussion missing a basic point as this for too long (if I have to respond with detail and instance).
  
  
• From: Saint Ilayaraja (@ 151.197.215.157) on: Mon May 12 22:48:02 EDT 2003
  
  Comparing Bismillah Khan to IR is like comparing apples and oranges. One is a musician and other a composer.
  
  Sadly enough the erudite music crowd fails to appreciate the difference between the two.
  Comparing IR to the trinity or to Bach would make sense. Not to a shehnai vidwan.
  
  
• From: mythila (@ 137.237.13.20) on: Tue May 13 12:46:55 EDT 2003
  
  Biju,
  Malaiyoram mayile,
  Devan thantha veenai athil devi seitha gaanam,
  Nirpadhuve Nadapadhuve Parappadhuve,
  Vaidehi Raman kai serum kaalam,
  Oru maalai chandiran malarai theduthu,
  Konjum sangeetham katru thaa gaana kuyile,
  Varuthu varuthu ilam kaatru
  Oru raagam paadalodu kaadhil kettadho
  Vaanam enge megam enge - are some of the memorable Kalyaani based songs composed by IR. These songs give immense listening pleasure and none of these have any repetition
  
  
  
• From: av (@ 132.206.72.59) on: Tue May 13 13:11:27 EDT 2003
  
  I am sure people must be aware of the excellent set of 15 articles on Ilayaraaja's use of classical music in films. Check them out here:
  
  http://www.newtfmpage.com/ci/
  
  These articles thoroughly explore Ilayaraaja's capabilities in the semiclassical idiom. The articles are replete with well-explained examples put forth in brilliant English. I am sure anyone who reads these should not be left with an iota of doubt about Ilayaraaja's ability to create unparalleled, pleasant and intellectually stimulating classical tunes.
  
  
• From: sriram (@ 163.181.250.2) on: Tue May 13 13:32:51 EDT 2003
  
  mythila, most of the songs you mentioned are not even semi-classical. they are not hardcore carnatic compositions. I don't think pennathur is doubting IR's ability to compose filmi songs that have a light classical base. his complaint is more to do with the lack of hardcore classical songs by IR even though he got a few opportunities. I'll have to disagree in 2 places. I don't think there were ample opportunities like MFM or 60s & 70s TFM. Also, given the opportunities and the perceived marketability of classical numbers, IR has done a fabulous job. For a long time I thought that IR was just faithfully reproducing Thyagarajar's tune for "Mari Mari". IMO, the tune that IR composed is fit for any kutcheri.
  Also, I feel it is wrong to compare with such forceful numners like "mannavan vandhAnadi" & "pAttum nAnE". Both of them are mythologicals & one of them is sung by God!! the situations virtually disallow anything other than a powerful composition. I can think of "Raaga Deepam Yetrum" which can be considered an equivalent.
  
  
• From: sriram (@ 163.181.250.2) on: Tue May 13 13:33:22 EDT 2003
  
  mythila, most of the songs you mentioned are not even semi-classical. they are not hardcore carnatic compositions. I don't think pennathur is doubting IR's ability to compose filmi songs that have a light classical base. his complaint is more to do with the lack of hardcore classical songs by IR even though he got a few opportunities. I'll have to disagree in 2 places. I don't think there were ample opportunities like MFM or 60s & 70s TFM. Also, given the opportunities and the perceived marketability of classical numbers, IR has done a fabulous job. For a long time I thought that IR was just faithfully reproducing Thyagarajar's tune for "Mari Mari". IMO, the tune that IR composed is fit for any kutcheri.
  Also, I feel it is wrong to compare with such forceful numners like "mannavan vandhAnadi" & "pAttum nAnE". Both of them are mythologicals & one of them is sung by God!! the situations virtually disallow anything other than a powerful composition. I can think of "Raaga Deepam Yetrum" which can be considered an equivalent.
  
  

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