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Raga of song please

Topic started by Gopal Prasad (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on Sat May 17 07:42:45 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

The popular notation used on this page. The twelve notes of an octave are the following.

1   2   3   4   5   6   7  8   9  10  11  12
S  R1  R2  R3  G3  M1  M2  P  D1  D2  D3  N3
       G1  G2                     N1  N2

"Raga based film songs" Database | Old Database | Indian Classical Music Forum | Hindi Raaga of Songs Thread

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Thu Jan 24 11:49:49 EST 2002
  
  hihi :-), there are dime a dozen songs in misra chaapu by IR..they (chaapus) are very much prevalent in TFM.."pottu vaitha vatta nila", "thendral kaatre thendral kaatre sedhi onnu kettiya", "mansu mayagum mouna geetham" etc. etc.it might have even be overused a bit by Raaja :-)
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Thu Jan 24 11:50:45 EST 2002
  
  IR, on nallathor veenai seithen, Iam still getting a strong Ahirbhairavi feel if I think about it..could it possibly be interpreted that way?
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 11:58:55 EST 2002
  
  Guys, this is what RajaG had to say about the beats - am c&P ing his comments...
  
  
  
  Simple rules-
  2/4 - EkathaaLam
  3/4 (or 6/8) - thisranadai, roopakam (depending on how you have spaced it out)
  4/4 - simple aadhi thaalam
  5/8 - kanda nadai, kanda chaapu thaaLam
  7/8 - misram
  
  Bottom line, the bottom line (denominator) is realy not that important in differentiating. Obviously there is a difference between a 1/4 beat and 1/8 beat
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Thu Jan 24 12:02:18 EST 2002
  
  4/4 and 7/8 are very common :-)
  
  one more example of waltz, I thought was "kann pona pokkile kaal pogalaama" from panam padaithavan..
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 12:08:41 EST 2002
  
  It may be a good idea to start a new thread called "Talas in TFM" and paste all of these responses. I am sure all this info would make more sense in a separate thread and we may be able to take a quick look at it anytime - if it is part of this thread, we may have to dig up OR to just get this info in course of time :-)
  
  vijay, thanks for the song info... very helpful..
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 216.65.106.130) on: Thu Jan 24 13:14:52 EST 2002
  
  ir, for a second i read it Tales in TFM :):)
  it is a good idea to start a fresh thread on beats :) in the above list i still have questions on 4/4 being aditalam.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 13:18:55 EST 2002
  
  sriks - adhu unga saamarthiyam - you fight it out with RG :) :)
  
  
• From: mandu hydrochloride:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Thu Jan 24 14:35:36 EST 2002
  
  i am changing my name to maNdu hydrochloride [:-)] specifially for this question. what exactly is the difference between, say mishra chApu and tripuda thALam? to me they are the same. (and most often i confuse the name mishram with khaNTam and hence i stick to the clearer 7-count/5-count thALam :-)) ).
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 14:48:29 EST 2002
  
  hihi :-) I think you are getting confused between counts/beats and the duration of each count/beat.
  
  Let me take an example and try to explain.
  
  (Infact, Aadhi talam, is nothing but Chathusra Tripdu Talam!)
  
  Let us take the example of Aadhi taLam and Mishra CHapu talam:
  
  Adhi Talam:(adhi talam is usually Chathusra nadai unless specifically noted) A Beat followed by 3 finger counts followed by another beat, followed by turning your hand - palm facing up , followed by another beat and finally another turn - palm facing up.
  
  In Other words, there are 8 counts/beats and each count is made up of 4 units of time. (total units in Aadhi talam is 4*8 = 32)
  
  |1234|1234|1234|1234|
  |1234|1234|1234|1234|
  
  Now, moving on to Mishra Chapu, it is a talam with a duration of 7 units of time - that is all. (total units in mishra CHapu = 7)
  The 7 units are split into 3+4
  |123|1234|
  
  If you notice, the beats have uneven time intervals in case of mishra chapu making up a total of 7 to complete a cycle. Where as in Aadhi talam, then entire thalam is split into time units of 4 per beat to make up a total of 32 to complete a cycle.
  
  I hope I did not confuse you further :)
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ ) on: Thu Jan 24 15:21:27 EST 2002
  
  thanks ir. no you didn't confuse me, but what do you mean by a "unit of time"? to me this "unit of time" is either arbitrary or is dictated by the "tempo". (tempo is the total number of notes in a minute - equivalently the total number of half-notes/quater-notes/... in a minute.)
  
  from what you have written counts per beat is like the number 3 in 3/4 and the duration of each count per beat is 1/4 (a quarter note).
  
  i have many corollary questions. can you please send me an email. i will bug off-line :-)
  
  
• From: pae (@ 168.168.67.112) on: Thu Jan 24 15:36:23 EST 2002
  
  IR :) good one. But what Mandu meant was the difference between misrachappu and thirupuda thalam. Thirupuda thalam is also 7 counts (clap, pinky,ring, clap,open,clap,open). Misra chappu is also 7 counts -open,open,(two veechu),clap,pinky. (thakida thakathimi). I think, Kamala Jaathala varnam is set to Thirupuda thalam. Cud u clarify pls ? :)
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 16:00:54 EST 2002
  
  hihi :-) the problem is I cannot explain this with reference to WCM :-(
  
  From what I understand (also refer RG's version/interpretation of WCM beats above) in a 3/4 - there are 4 beats in a cycle and each beat has a duration of 3 units (or sub beats if you would!) in other words 123|123|123|123 would make 3/4! By unit of time, I meant Aksharam ( I did not want ot throw jargons and confuse further - an aksharam is one unit of time)
  
  I can give you more examples and more explanation offline :-) send me the questions: isairasigai@hotmail.com :-)
  
  pae :-) I took the example of aadhi thaLam to make it simple. YOu are asking about thisra thripudai.
  
  Again - Mishra Chapu has a total of 7 UNITS/Aksharam per cycle (123|1234) - split into 2 beats/counts
  
  Thisra Thripudai has 7*4 = 28 units. You are confusing beats with aksharams :-) YOu are right about Thisra thripudai having 7 beats - but each beat has a duration of 4 aksharams if it is chathusra nadai, 3 if it is thisra nadai, 5 if it is kanta nadai or 7 if it is mishra nadai
  
  Finally, the difference between thhisra tripudai and mishra chaapu is in the number of aksharam /unit of time
  
  TT - 28 units
  MC = 7 units
  
  Hope this clarifies :-)
  
  
  
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 16:02:32 EST 2002
  
  and yes kamalajaathaLa and aanalekara geethams are in Tripuda thaalam :-)
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Thu Jan 24 16:17:10 EST 2002
  
  pae, check here
  http://www.lkt.mavt.ethz.ch/~chidu/
  
  the confusion is because chaapu is a different form of classification entirely..it doesnt fit in the suladi sapta tala scheme at all..
  
  whereas triputa (which is one Laghu followd by 2 dhrutams where the Laghu can take up five different jathis) belongs to the suladi sapta tala scheme..
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 16:19:14 EST 2002
  
  (Warning: this is only for pae - others dont read it - it might confuse you - pae is talking purely from a carnatic point of view/what he has seen in concerts) :-)
  
  pae: "Misra chappu is also 7 counts -open,open,(two veechu),clap,pinky. (thakida thakathimi). "
  
  OH I see what you mean. Mishra CHapu technically has only 2 counts/beats. The first beat (open) has a duration of 3 units and the second (Closed) has a duration of 4 units.
  
  But, for convenience sake, and to get a better grip on the tala, the first beat (tha ki ta) is divided into two (|tha|kita|) - open,open - Technically this is just one open beat :-)
  
  Again the second beat of 4 is subdivided into 2 for convenience :-) (|tha ka|dhi mi|) - closed, closed. Technicaly, this should be just one closed beat/count. (manasula mishram irukkaNum!!)
  
  But if you watch some musicians closely, you would notice that they would avoid these sub beats and just do the 2 beats for both mishra and kanda chaapu talam :-)
  
  
• From: pae (@ 168.168.67.112) on: Thu Jan 24 16:20:18 EST 2002
  
  Thanks IR, vijay
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 16:24:19 EST 2002
  
  vijay - is right - Laghu can take up 5 jaathis (meaning whether we count 2 fingers after a beat, or 3 or 4)- and each of these jaathis can take 5 nadais (meaning - if each finger count has a duration of 3,4,5,7 or 9!!!!!:-) this is too much :-) adikka varaadheenga :-)
  
  There are 7 basic talas, 5 jaatis (how many fingers to count) and 5 nadais (duration of each count) . This makes up the 175 tala scheme :-) hehehe :-) ok am gone :-)
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Thu Jan 24 16:24:54 EST 2002
  
  IR, now onto the next question, what is the significance in the first beat being "open" or "closed"..isnt just the time duration that matters?..for example I can put both the two counts of mishra chaapu tala with my palm facing down..its just a convention thaan illaya?
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 16:26:05 EST 2002
  
  yes - does not matter - but as you said it is just a convention!
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Thu Jan 24 16:41:01 EST 2002
  
  ir: a quick correction. n a 3/4 - there are 4 beats in a cycle and each beat has a duration of 3 units (or sub beats if you would!) it is the other way around. there are three beats per cycle (measure/bar) and each beat has a quarter note duration.
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.62.117.121) on: Thu Jan 24 16:49:00 EST 2002
  
  hihi :-) Oh sorry! that should read 3 beats - since RG said thisra nadai roopakam - but per my definition (carnatic) - each beat has a duration of 3 units/aksharams (|tha ki ta|tha ki ta|tha ki ta|) :-)
  
  adhaan naa indha viLayaatukku varalai nnu sonnen - I cannot translate talam in carnatic to beats in WCM effectively :-)
  
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Thu Jan 24 17:04:13 EST 2002
  
  orE conpewsun-A kIdhubA :-(
  
  

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