Home   Forum   Wiki   Notes   Register   FAQ   Sitemap   About Us   Contact Us  

Serious doubt Reg IR music

Topic started by yaaro (@ 62.6.139.13) on Wed Aug 18 15:25:28 EDT 2004.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I am a diehard IR fan.
There have been gigabytes of material posted analysing IR's music-whether it be carnatic or western or folk. I hardly have seen any other MD's music being analysed and dissected as IR's.
I am a zero as far as musical technicality is concerned.
What I am curious is whether other MD's creations are not as complex as IR's-or is it that only IR's fans are music savvy-or is it that we are really complexi-fying his music.The last, I am sure is not the reason .
For eg the only comment I can remember for ARR is the famous ''kedharathukku sedharam'' comment for ennavale..

---

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: k (@ 64.166.87.251) on: Sat Sep 4 21:02:01 EDT 2004
  
  I am afraid, using rhythmic variations, might conflict with the WCM aspects of a song. But I am only a layman in music, so I could be wrong. We have to understand that each and every music director has his/her own focus. For MSV, it is the intricacies of the tune, that is one of the reasons you will see the nadais changing a lot. (you will see IR also doing this in such situations like in kochu kochu santhoshangal). For IR, it is tune/melody+WCM integration, for ARR it is melody+rhythm (BTW, I doubt ARR has surpassed MSV, IR etc in the rhythm dept, inspite of help from loops, sivamani etc ).
  So I am only guessing that the rhythm dept got ignored by IR at the cost of orchestration.
  
  Like I said, I dont care about his lack of attention to the rhythm during the later part of his career (note, in the earlier part, we see interesting work). WCM aspects in indian film music was in its infancy pre-IR, inspite of efforts by people like MSV in tamil. Just listen to the way the strings move in IR's songs. It is totally in a different league than other MDs in India. Why should IR work on the rhythm, when already people have done good work ? Doesn't he need a differentiating aspect in his music ? Well, I am enamored of this 'differentiating aspect' , vijay, please I am not giving any excuse. I just think I understand IR better than you do :) :) :).
  
  
• From: isaiosai (@ 12.10.219.36) on: Sat Sep 4 22:10:58 EDT 2004
  
  While many IR songs in the same simple tabla beat could be boring, I think IR has most number of good/hit songs to his credit in the same boring table beat. Hey, that in itself could be a challenge:-) It will be interesting to see how many non-IR good/hit songs are there in the same simple and boring table beat.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Sat Sep 4 23:13:28 EDT 2004
  
  Venus, no one said Muthu maNi maalai's tune/orchestration was boring/monotonous. We were talking about just the rhythm. So no "subjective" business there :-)I agree that there are soem great tunes that dont need rhythm changes to be good.(even from amongst IR songs several examples are there). But in IR's case there are many more songs where rhythm changes were badly needed to break the monootny but were yet absent.and the tunes werent great enough to compensate either- eg. yenge en jeevane, chitukku chella chittukku, mani osai kettuezhundhu and plenty other songs
  
  
  k, I am just saying that IR could have done his orchestration-stuff without losing his focus on melody/rhythm. You seem to think one has to come at the expense of the other. "vizhiyile marandhadhu" has everything - tune, rhythm changes and orchestration. So you are making excuses when you say that IR , in order to focus on harmony, has to neglect rhythm. I dont accept it. "shivakara" from Kochu kochu santhoshangal, even "iLangatru veesudhe" are examples of rhythm changes without compromising on other aspects. when shreya starts singing "karumbaram manasila" in the pallavi after the male singer finishes his part, note the rhythm change. And iLangatru veesudhe is a very simple tune, unlike those MSV songs. The thing is, IR for some reason, didnt do enough of it in the 80s.percentage-wise, quite low, 500-600 songs out of 3000+. In addition to same rhythm withina song, same rhythm pattern was also repeated over several hundred songs. So repetition both within and across songs.(Actually, as surprising as it may sound, his rhythm sounds less monotonous these days as compared to the 80s)If WCM-related aspects have to be incorporated at the expense of intricate tunes and imaginative rhythm arrangements then thats a huge compromise.
  
  But atleast you agree that he didnt concentrate enough on rhythm(except for his initial 4 or 5 years) and lets leave it at that. Thats what I tried to say some 20 posts back to Noteman and ended up starting off this whole thing.
  
  
• From: venus (@ 4.61.195.139) on: Sun Sep 5 02:01:09 EDT 2004
  
  vijay,
  In my post, I did not mention anything specific to orchestration/tune.
  
  I was addresing the effect of the whole song and the rhythm changes.
  
  
• From: Note Man (@ 35.9.20.88) on: Sun Sep 5 18:03:07 EDT 2004
  
  Guys,
  Thanks for all the posts. I have a lot to catch up since my last posting. It has really been an interesting discussion and plenty of great songs have been mentioned throughout.
  
  vijay,
  Thanks for all the follow up postings, which I found very informative. Also, I found that IR may have experimented with rhythms in Telugu than in Tamil. I will however need the help of IRs telugu fans to verify this statement.
  
  thumburu,
  Thanks for the info, I get the picture. I am always a bit confused over rhythm variations within a song and experimentations in rhythm variations. But the songs you have quoted have cleared up some of my doubts.
  
  Kaumudi,
  I thought Raaja was always known for his innovative beats, take his songs in Telugu for example.
  
  k,
  Your posts are really great. I agree with your assessment that you have understood IR well.
  Its amusing to see no follow up posting from the DFer (Jacky or BT) who stated that there are other new MDs who have given good rhythms (or something of the sort). I think VS, YSR and Devi Sri Prasad are good in this area. What do you think?
  
  
  
  
• From: k (@ 66.122.213.28) on: Sun Sep 5 19:43:53 EDT 2004
  
  vijay, I do know that IR did quite a number of songs with just one simple beat throughout (beat ARR to using loops :)) , no bass, no strings/orchestrations etc. I think this was a patch ..I dont know how long and exactly when it started. But I am guessing it is latter part of the 80s. I do see good work in the early 90s again fading in the late 90s and picking up from then on.
  You seem to disagree on that rhythm conflicting with WCM style orchestration. I dont think the examples you gave are good examples of orchestration. Anyways, I have nothing much more to add on this topic.
  Note Man, I have not listened much to other MDs. I like IRs style of tunes, even if it is the simplistic rhythm. Actually, it is just not the tune, there is a kind of feel to IR's songs, almost melancholic, even in so called happy numbers. It is basically the mood of the composition that appeals to me, more than the I do have my preferences within IR's work and I listen to those more often - I like bass driven rhythms (eg. mEgam kottatum, ilam pani thulir) , strings backing of indian melodies (pudhu pudhu arthangal, guru etc). I have a hobby of collecting any of his album whether on CD or LP. Lots of good stuff, that I dont seemed to have listened to yet. So other MDs albums are taking a back seat. For eg. I have a 'free CD' i got with an IR album - bAbA, I have not even removed the wrapper on this..same goes for another of Harris Jeyaraj's CDs. If I have the time, I devote to cleaning older LPs and listening to them.
  
  (dear telugu brother, I dont mean to ignore your questions :) Like I said earlier, my preference is for bass driven rhythms, or the rhythm variations in songs like in kochu kochu santhoshangal. I will listen to those you mentioned and refresh my memory).
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Mon Sep 6 02:07:29 EDT 2004
  
  Noteman, IR did a lot less in Telugu, so it might seem that the rhythm monotony is less there.Also, some of the best tunes in TFM made its way into TeFM as dubbed/remade versions.
  
  "You seem to disagree on that rhythm conflicting with WCM style orchestration. I dont think the examples you gave are good examples of orchestration. "
  
  OK, how about, Thathaaram from Guru? How did the varying rhythm conflict the WCM? Vaanam Keezhe vandhaal enna, which Prasanna has described as a magnum opus, has lots of rhythm interplay woven into the song. Raajadhi raaja in Mannan has a totally different pattern from charanam 2 onwards. So did Thoongadha vizhigaL for the first 2 lines of the charanam. These are few examples I can think of now. If IR didnt do enough, its just his sheer indifference to this aspect and nothing else. Rhythm is common to both WCM and ICM. Only the melody aspect tends to be rooted in ICM.
  
  "Note Man, I have not listened much to other MDs."
  
  well, this is the problem. Once you start listening to more of what other MDs have to offer, especially the ones before IR, you will understand what I am talking about. Until then it is futile to dicuss any comparison between MDs on rhythms. You are missing a lot by not listening much to MDs of the past.
  As for understanding IR better, whoever here praises IR more(or criticizes him less) seems to be the one who has understood him better :-)) Whatever.
  
  And there are lot of "malai" songs like "malaiyora mayile", "malayora maanguruvi", "malaiyoram veesum kaatru" etc. etc. which dont have any of the unique rhythm patterns you are talking about. IR doesnt consciously follow any such formulas AFAIK. He might have just reused/recycled certain rhythms.
  
  
• From: Kaumudi (@ 136.142.153.250) on: Mon Sep 6 12:03:42 EDT 2004
  
  Noteman
  I was talking only about tamil songs. I definitely think that IR's attitude w.r.t. rhythms was different (and better) towards telugu songs.
  
  Vijay
  "Noteman, IR did a lot less in Telugu, so it might seem that the rhythm monotony is less there.Also, some of the best tunes in TFM made its way into TeFM as dubbed/remade versions."
  
  - I don't necessarily agree with you on this vijay. True IR did in telugu about 20-25% of the total movies he composed for in tamil. It is a possibility that sheer numbers might have caused a feeling of overwhelming usage of tabla in a monotonous way in tamil. But if you take percentages into account, i.e., if you consider the number of songs with this malady to the total no. of songs he composed in tamil, this percentage is much higher than it is in telugu.
  
  In fact, there was a time when I used to believe that it had to be a tamil dubbed/remade song if a telugu IR composition had this monotonous tabla in it. Really, no joking! When I first heard the telugu versions of the songs "chinna kiLi vaNNa kiLi" and "muthu maNi malai", I was saying to myself - "there we go, tamiLa vaasana" = tamil smell). If I think back about several IR songs in telugu springing in my mind, I cannot think of this malady that many of his tamil songs have unfortunately suffered from.
  
  Noteman is probably right (and also someone pointed out earlier in this thread or some other thread) in that IR is reasonably well known for his new beats in telugu. Some of his songs in telugu were major hits, IMO, precisely for the rhythms (songs in movies like rudranetra, shiva, bobbili raja, rakshasudu, challenge etc..I can keep writing)
  
  So IR's repertoire in telugu has to be considered independent of his stuff in tamil. He definitely experimented a little better in telugu.
  
  
• From: k (@ 67.118.9.118) on: Mon Sep 6 13:52:41 EDT 2004
  
  vijay, do you think I have not listened to older MDs ? Sorry, my friend you see to be on quest to win your argument and in the melee making too many assumptions. I meant current MDs. Man, I do know what I am missing what I am enjoying. But still thanks for pointing out what I am missing.
  Well ..you dont believe malai/love(actually kaamam) songs have beats ? Hmm..well thats all I have to back my theory.
  I think I have made a point that varying rhythms conflict with WCM orchestrations. Do you think you have disproved this theory conclusively, with no need for any more discussions ? and that we all take whatever vijay said as the last word on this subject ?
  
  

---

List all pages of this thread

Post comments