Home   Forum   Wiki   Notes   Register   FAQ   Sitemap   About Us   Contact Us  

Serious doubt Reg IR music

Topic started by yaaro (@ 62.6.139.13) on Wed Aug 18 15:25:28 EDT 2004.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I am a diehard IR fan.
There have been gigabytes of material posted analysing IR's music-whether it be carnatic or western or folk. I hardly have seen any other MD's music being analysed and dissected as IR's.
I am a zero as far as musical technicality is concerned.
What I am curious is whether other MD's creations are not as complex as IR's-or is it that only IR's fans are music savvy-or is it that we are really complexi-fying his music.The last, I am sure is not the reason .
For eg the only comment I can remember for ARR is the famous ''kedharathukku sedharam'' comment for ennavale..

---

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Sat Sep 4 13:15:52 EDT 2004
  
  Kaumudi, thanks for agreeing with me :-) And good to see you here in these pages after quite some time.
  
  Jeera, I agree that ppl tend to look at it as a minor %, but I am not demanding that he should experiment in rhythm in every song. I am talking about very small subtle changes in the charanams in keeping with the flow of the song. For example, in "Nikattuma pogattuma" he starts with his ususal standard tabla beats but in the charanams switches to an interesting pattern. Thats not some big experiment but small changes like that add a lot to the song.Unfortunately, he didnt do it enough.I guess he wasnt interested or thought that just his orchesration would mask the other standard features of his song.
  
  
• From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Sat Sep 4 13:19:31 EDT 2004
  
  Jeera, u are right as to the catchy rythms IR employed during his initial days. I remember the rage the guys had for the starting beats of "thanni karuthiruchu" song in Illamai oonjalaadugiradhu. "Enn thegam Amudham " from oru odai nadhiyaagiradhu. That reminds me of another song "kanni illam poonguil" from some obscure film
  which is also an erotic situation with good rythm.
  K, I agree with you. For erotic situations IR comes up with good rythm like 'poo potta dhavani', 'thevai indha paavai', 'kaatille kambankaatille',
  'ippo ssathu nadai saathu' etal.
  It is foolish to expect rythm variation in situations where emotional sensitivity is high like in 'muthu mani maalai'. In such situations, pathos, thaalaatu(mind u raaja has scored for maximum thaalaatu songs) ,the rythm should be consistent and unobtrusive and definitely IR is the best to be aware of that.
  K, even in hiphop songs like 'illa vattam kai thattum' (MDMaarthaandan) the beats are good.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Sat Sep 4 13:24:57 EDT 2004
  
  "It is foolish to expect rythm variation in situations where emotional sensitivity is high like in 'muthu mani maalai'."
  
  and I guess it is wise to expect no variations whatsoever even in songs like pani vizhum iravu, yenge en jeevane, kaNNUkum kaNNUkkum modhal etc. etc. :-) Whatever
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Sat Sep 4 13:39:23 EDT 2004
  
  vizhiyil vizhundhu is an example of a song with "high emotional sensitivity" that has wonderful mridhungam usage. There are many such examples. Even in slightly pathos songs like "yela marak kaatukuLLE" (nadodi thendral) or "raaga dheebam" different rhythms have been employed. So much for that half-baked theory.There is no fixed formula for any song. Its upto the imgaintaion of the composer and his willingness to use it.
  
  
• From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Sat Sep 4 14:10:35 EDT 2004
  
  Focus on WCM doesnt necessarily mean negligence to the ICM aspects - melody/rhythm - where do u have change in nadai in a carnatic music WITHIN A SONG?
  AFAIK, a carnatic song sticks to either aadhi or roopakam or whatever from pallavi to charanam. Just because few of you in TFM keep harping about IR's sticking to the same beat structure from the beginning to end is not going to mean negligence on the part of the composer or unwillingness or whatever. Shall we start nitpicking about why MSV didnt go for graceful WCM polyphony or why KVM didn't concentrate on orchestration? . Rythm is only a pakka vaadhyam and a song doesn't become a bad composition just because it sticks to unirythm structure when there are other aspects to appreciate. Yes, I will switch off zakir hussain's tabla if he tries to do a gimmickry like in raagangal 16 song , trying to bulldoze the other aspects of the song
  
  
• From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Sat Sep 4 14:14:11 EDT 2004
  
  One can expect rythm change in pani vizhum iravu, not so in yenge en jeevane and kaNNUkum kaNNUkkum modhal - no idea
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Sat Sep 4 14:30:00 EDT 2004
  
  "AFAIK, a carnatic song sticks to either aadhi or roopakam or whatever from pallavi to charanam"
  
  that tells me that you dont know the difference between thalam and nadai. Adhi or roopakam is just the thaalam. In carnatic conecrts the percussionist plays around with the ghatam/mridhungam like hell, the nadais far more complex than anything heard in TFM.
  
  "Yes, I will switch off zakir hussain's tabla if he tries to do a gimmickry like in raagangal 16 song , trying to bulldoze the other aspects of the song
  "
  that just tells me your prefernce for the simplest of beats. That doesnt bring down Zakir Hussain's greatness.
  
  "Shall we start nitpicking about why MSV didnt go for graceful WCM polyphony or why KVM didn't concentrate on orchestration? ."
  
  obviously you didnt follow this discussion from the beginning and jumped in the middle with some half-baked theories. Go back and read the first two posts. I started off by responding to Noteman's post about IR's undisputed excellece in all areas of a song including melody and rhythm. Thats when I reminded him that there have been others before IR who have done equally good and even better in these 2 areas.
  
  
• From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Sat Sep 4 15:33:42 EDT 2004
  
  Fine. Being a layman, I guess nadai is manoeuvre within the thaala structure of a song. Probably it is during thani avarthanam in kutcheris.
  "Thats when I reminded him that there have been others before IR who have done equally good and even better in these 2 areas" - You haven't given sufficient backing and whatever substantial counter backing we provide, u conveniently put inside the 20% bucket??? I can understand that ARR has definitely superseded Raaja in rythm dept, but KVM? GR? MSV? That is when I started off with instances from MSV's and vijay your tone suggested as if unirythm structure was a crime , negligence or unwillingness on MD's part to experiment. My point is it doesn't in anyway diminish the beauty of the songs. Kaumidi, you must have heard of the ultimate folk dance song 'thaiyaare thaiyaare ' song in madhumathi(Salil Choudry). Does it have any rythm variation in the kolaattam through out the song? No.Only at the end the song ,kolaattam momento picks up. In what way has the song lost its value? Till today it is the most preferred dance song. The songs I listed from MSV's repertoire were not elegant due to that varying thaala nadai.
  
  
• From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Sat Sep 4 15:46:37 EDT 2004
  
  I have heard about songs in "vilamba kaalam" like 'akilaandeshwari'. sung by Smt.MS in slow adhi thaalam with no other variation in nadai. Probably songs like oru kanam oru yugamaaga, muthu mani maalai, fall in that genre.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Sat Sep 4 16:07:12 EDT 2004
  
  Thumburu, sufficent backing? If you have listened to enough songs from the 60s I would'nt have to list anything, its all out there. I dont even know where to begin listing. Have you listened to "rock rock rock" a rock-and-roll cum carnatic song? or "varevendum oru pozhudhu" or "maan kanda sorgangaL" or "veLLI kiNNam dhaan" or plenty others? BTW, even saying that ARR has definitely superseded IR in the rhythm dept. is debatable(considering he uses a lot of pre-existing loops) but that's a different issue. A song might sound good to you and others if the other aspects apart from rhythm are good enough to compensate, but that doesnt mean the rhythm had to be unimaginative or monotonous.I have given enough examples from IR's own songs to illustrate and refute all your theories as to how pathos or lullabies should have uniform rhythm. Laali laali might be another example to prove my point. Most often,uniform rhythm is just lack of effort from the part of the composer and there are songs from IR where other aspects of the song didnt compensate enough for the monotonous rhythm.
  
  "I have heard about songs in "vilamba kaalam" like 'akilaandeshwari'. sung by Smt.MS in slow adhi thaalam with no other variation in nadai. Probably songs like oru kanam oru yugamaaga, muthu mani maalai, fall in that genre.
  "
  No they dont.
  
  
• From: T Muthu (@ 4.158.117.100) on: Sat Sep 4 16:55:02 EDT 2004
  
  ........saying that ARR has definitely superseded IR in the rhythm dept. is debatable(considering he uses a lot of pre-existing loops) but that's a different issue........
  
  i don't not debatable! even MSV has done better stuff. About IR's rythms, especially songs in Kaadhal Parisu, Andha Oru Nimidam.
  
  
• From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Sat Sep 4 17:38:48 EDT 2004
  
  The 60's songs like Velli kinnam thaan are indeed classic songs of varying rythm which gels with the flow of the song and I believe they are from VR period. But 'maan kanda sorgangal' the music seems to suffer to accomodate the prose like lyrics and MSV had no other option but to resort to varying rythms. The charanam esp is a big dull drab. Iam not able to relish esp some songs of MSV with that varying nadai due to cumbersome lyrics or probably due to lack of effort from MD to make it interesting . Well, I move on.Let us agree to disagree on this .
  
  
• From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Sat Sep 4 17:55:42 EDT 2004
  
  "maan kanda sorangal' beats resemble "naan undhan thaayaaga vendum" - ullasaparavaigal which got released before 47 days
  
  
• From: venus (@ 4.61.196.175) on: Sat Sep 4 18:02:19 EDT 2004
  
  This discussion is an another example for how music is "Sujective".
  
  The same "Ragangal 16" song is seen as "Brilliant","Innovative" and "Haphard" and "Annoying".
  
  "Muthu manai mala" is seen as "boring", "monotonus" and "sensitive""Emotional" and "mesmerising"
  
  Which one is right? and which one is wrong?
  
  I do not think that it is very straight forward to decide on these? and that is the beauty of the music (whether WCM,ICM or any M) as well.
  
  There are lot of "time tested" good songs which has lot of rhythm changes, for example most of songs in "Krishna Ganam" album (though it is not a TFM album all the artists are from TFM). Those songs never annoyed or irritated (even though I listened to them very often )me (IMO).
  
  There are lot of ever "green songs " which does not have any "major or subtle changes". For example
  chitukuruvi mutham koduthu
  Thangathilae oru kurai
  Kadhal chirakai katrinil
  
  I donot get bored or sleepy or monotonus when I hear them (these songs are very close to heart)(once againIMO).
  
  Should we need complex rhythm pattern or change in order to enjoy the song?
  
  Will the rhythm pattern changes stop you from enjoying the song?
  
  Will the songs with uniform rhythm pattern will always bore you?
  
  So bottom line is "everything boils down to individual preferences".
  
  
  
  
  
• From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Sat Sep 4 18:42:58 EDT 2004
  
  venus,what I am trying to tell is just rythm changes alone don't guarantee listening pleasure and the examples I gave were in that direction.Just like vijay and a few feel unirythmic pattern is boring , I feel multirythmic patterns could be boring too esp when other parameters like melody, orchestration are falling short.
  
  

---

List all pages of this thread

Post comments