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Serious doubt Reg IR music

Topic started by yaaro (@ 62.6.139.13) on Wed Aug 18 15:25:28 EDT 2004.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I am a diehard IR fan.
There have been gigabytes of material posted analysing IR's music-whether it be carnatic or western or folk. I hardly have seen any other MD's music being analysed and dissected as IR's.
I am a zero as far as musical technicality is concerned.
What I am curious is whether other MD's creations are not as complex as IR's-or is it that only IR's fans are music savvy-or is it that we are really complexi-fying his music.The last, I am sure is not the reason .
For eg the only comment I can remember for ARR is the famous ''kedharathukku sedharam'' comment for ennavale..

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Fri Sep 3 21:45:27 EDT 2004
  
  thumburu, no one expected rhythm fireworks in those songs. There is absolutely no variation in rhythm in any of those songs, the same boring pattern from start to finish. If you dont like RaagangaL 16, there are hundreds of other oldies I can give examples(including few IR songs) where subtle changes in rhythm add a lot of value to the listening experience. Listen to "Naan ENNum pozhudhu" by Salil and notice how the table nadais change and complement the song or notice how the table picks up a couple of notches when the charanams of Bharathi kaNNamma start or the tricky placement of rhythm in Maan Kanda sorgangal. There are hundreds more, obviously you havent heard enough TFM other than IR songs.
  
  The songs that you have mentioned are rare exceptions(falls in the balance 20% I was talking about) and even Adi Netriravu is a slight derivative of sandhaikku vandhakili's rhythm pattern. And when the charanam starts in that song, IR gets back to using the standard beat structure reserved for tabla.No point in listing a few IR songs from here and there..I have listened to most of them already before forming my opinion.
  
  
  "Anyways, to me rhythm/tabla sound does not matter that much if the overall content/complexity in the song is very high"
  
  k, rhythm usage adds to the overall complexity of the song. If the tune is simplistic and rhythm is also simple(like in Yenge en jeevane) you are left with just orchestration/harmony and nothing else.
  
  
• From: Note Man (@ 24.11.160.43) on: Sat Sep 4 01:18:45 EDT 2004
  
  vijay,
  IR's usage of tabla is quite unique and sort of a trademark, in that, it leaves a distinct first impression. For example, listen to the song, "yamaho" from Jagadeka veerudu atiloka sundari (telugu) which has the same tune as "madura marikozhi", and notice the difference in orchestrisation. The rustic beat in "madura" is replaced by a classy table rhythm in "yamaho". Notice the way the rhythm varies after each interlude. When I was young and not so knowledgable about any music analysis, I used to listen to this song for its enchanting tabla usage.
  
  k , vijay and thumburu,
  While we are at it, I want to know some songs by ARR that you guys think stand out for their unique rhythms. I think his variations are quite good in many songs.
  
  
  
• From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Sat Sep 4 10:02:16 EDT 2004
  
  " There are hundreds more, obviously you havent heard enough TFM other than IR songs. " - Now, this is typecasting without knowing anything about the person. Now can I assume you have not heard anybody other than MSV?
  I do like the rythms used by MSV in 1. engeyum eppodum , namma ooru singaari , sambho siva sambho (NI) 2. sakka podu podu raja(bharatha vilaas)
  3. inru vandha yendha mayakkam (ktkadavulada) 4. aval yen sirithaal(ktkadavulada), naan oru medai paadagan(some mgr flick)- although in the last 3 songs one can sense heavy 70's bollywood influence.
  It is utterly annoying to vary rythm in a haphazard manner(yes, I still maintain that) just for the heck of it in enni irundhadhu eedera, gowri manohariyai kanden , vaazhndaal unnodu vaazhnthiruppen. Especially in raagangl 16 when there is absolutely no filler music in hollow charanam despite SPB's improvisation , the tabla adi is a headache.
  in bharathi kannamma in the lines "nilaa kaalangalil solai " that marana adi in tabla is a turn off .
  Adi netriravu - is surely a candidate for creative rythm used by raaja. It may be just your opinion that you find it boring.
  Noteman, you cannot consider just rythm variation within a song to be a parameter for complexity or creativity.Fortunately a common rasika is blessed with greater music sense and that is why songs like 'muthu mani maalai' , 'bharathi kannamma' have become evergreen hits inspite of monotonous rythm in one and so called paradigm of complexity in the other.
  
  
• From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Sat Sep 4 10:08:14 EDT 2004
  
  I haven't listened to 'naan ennum pozhudhu' for so many years. But I regularly listen to the Hindi original LM's song. That song stands out more for the melodious tune and singer's rendering than for Rythm beauty or lack of it
  
  
• From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Sat Sep 4 10:22:01 EDT 2004
  
  Noteman, make a note of 'poo potta dhaavani' , 'maadathille kanni maadathille' , 'oru pattaampoochi nenjukulle', 'Dilbar jaane'edakku mudakkaana sarakku' (both from kalaignyan), 'vilakku vaippom ' athma, 'naan vanagugiren' Guru - as having INTERESTING (got it?) rythm.
  
  
• From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Sat Sep 4 11:09:41 EDT 2004
  
  ARR's career is lined with repertoire of catchy, groovy rythms and no wonder he is a hit with the youth.It started with Rukumani Rukumani ' , 'hai raama ' rangeela days, 'ramta jogi', songs in daud , 'beats of passion', 'mein samaje gayi','kariye na' , 'love check' (PP)till 'chinnamma chilukkamma (meenaaxi) - the list is just endless
  
  
• From: k (@ 64.166.87.251) on: Sat Sep 4 12:21:09 EDT 2004
  
  Well..this is probably not exactly vijay's point. But I think the same tabla beat throughout a song is used by IR in quite a good number of song. eg nilavE mugam kAttu in ejamaan. I think this is one of the reasons people think a song 'it is the same old thing'. But IR seems to use this atleast in one song in a movie. Mani Ratnam always wants unique/modern rhythm arrangements. So all songs except nilavE vaa are so in mouna raagam.
  And to be fair here, I do see IR using tabla in many many ways. Due to a lack of good recording, people may not notice that. Even in muthu mani maalai, the beat has a 'stop and go' rhythm. Since he really beat the tabla extensively (beat to death :)), a UK tabla artiste (who does remixes) has collaborated with IR on an album (Talvin Singh). When there are major super stars in the north, the fact that this artiste came to IR, should tell something about his skills with tabla. I think IR is one of the few MDs who can play a variety of instruments. He collects various instruments and learns how to play them quickly.
  
  IR has done so many songs. So he has used drums,tabla, dholak, mridhangam, congas, bongos etc in various permutations and combinations. More than that he drove the rhythms with the bass guitar. But he did so many songs, it is only practical before people get used to the 'sound'. This paved the way for ARR. For that matter, I think a new MD always brings in new rhythms. Film music is a popular music format and the rhythm is the main thing people notice first. It was the bass guitar for IR and the drum machine for ARR.
  
  Like they say, the 'beat changes with time'. Anyways, I dont regret IR's lack of focus on rhythm in the latter part of his career. It is only because of that we now have a serious WCM composer. I consider songs like 'enna solli paaduvatho' as a new paradigm in classical music fusion.
  
  (BTW, I am not surprised the rhythm in munnam seidha dhavam. The keyword in that song, which prompts IR to use such rhythms is - kaaman. In tamil literature, kurinji (hills) is associated with the emotion of love/sex. Hills is where you hear those tribal beats. IR has worked/lived in such areas. So the beat when the location is hills/emotion == love/sex. This is kind of a formula he uses from meen kodi thEril manmadha to malai kovil vaasalil)
  
  
• From: Kaumudi (@ 136.142.153.250) on: Sat Sep 4 12:29:06 EDT 2004
  
  Interesting discussion! Since ARR was brought up in this discussion, one song that stands out in my mind as a good example of rhythm patterns is "Theppalekki" from bharatheeyudu (I think it is "kappal eri" from indian). Listen to the subtle but definite changes he makes in the beat pattern. The first change in the beat occurs at the beginning of the first interlude. And this can be followed throughout the song. And of course there is the classic example "Athisaya thirumanam" which has the 5/8, 6/8 and 7/8 thalams in it, something like a thaalamalika.
  
  Now coming to IR: He probably is not exactly known for his versatility in beats/rhythm patterns. But he has given some good stuff too, however not too prolific in this area. One example that comes to my mind is the song "O Prema" from Aswamedham (telugu) - listen to it on MIO. This song has both a happy and a sad situation in one song. See how IR swiftly changes between the tabla (for pathos) and the rhythm pad (for joyous) with variation between them. Another example is "Andela ravamidi" from swarnakamalam (telugu) where the beat keeps changing all the time. "Sye sindeyyi" from Antahpuram (telugu) is again a good rhythm oriented song with some variations.
  
  Unfortunately, IR is more known for his tabla usage and I agree with vijay that he probably used it more monotonously than he should have.
  
  ARR and IR had different ways of keeping their music fresh to help them standout in the midst of a lot of mediocrity and competition. IR used new chords and orchestration techniques and ARR used new sounds and beats.
  
  
  
• From: Jeera (@ 24.30.109.67) on: Sat Sep 4 12:42:44 EDT 2004
  
  k
  
  Like your sensible postings.
  
  Especially these:
  
  More than that he drove the rhythms with the bass guitar. - Nethi Adi.
  
  It is not that IR has not experimented with Tabla, Mirudangam etc Rhythm - he has done a lot - But his total output is very high that people tend to look at it as a minor % to the total.
  
  Infact though it is years since I have heard the song - I still remember the Tabla Rhythm here - Enn thegam Amudham by SJ - Don't remember the film name - Tablava Uruttu Uruttunu Urutu varu.
  
  Just like meenkoti theril example, IR has also tried using different rhythm instruments in his earlier years to capture Audiences attention like Asaiya Kathulae Thoothuvittu, Raaman Andalum - It was a craze at that time but seems have lost the lustre now probably because of repeated hearing and the electronic instruments and beats.
  
  BTW, I am not surprised the rhythm in munnam seidha dhavam. The keyword in that song, which prompts IR to use such rhythms is - kaaman. In tamil literature, kurinji (hills) is associated with the emotion of love/sex. Hills is where you hear those tribal beats. IR has worked/lived in such areas. So the beat when the location is hills/emotion == love/sex. This is kind of a formula he uses from meen kodi thEril manmadha to malai kovil vaasalil -Again you seem to have understood IR's Rhythm arrangements well.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Sat Sep 4 13:09:07 EDT 2004
  
  Noteman, the songs that you keep bringing as examples, like I said earlier, I have listened to all of them. They are all exceptions, fall in the balance 20%.Most of his nadais are not at all difficult to conceive. Shenbagame shenbagame from the same film - again the same boring pattern from start to finish. There are hundreds of songs that follow the same beat structure that you see in songs like "aagaya gangai/mudhal mudhalaaga/oh nenjame idhu un"(same in all 3) carry and again no changes in the charanam anywhere.
  
  If adi netriravi is "interesting" despite the fact that it has been recycled and resorts back to the standard tabla structure in the charanams and bharathi kaNNamma "boring" there is no point in discussing further. Dilbare jaane is again standard dhandiya beat used in Hindi songs.I think even ARR used it in dhandiya aattamum aada. maadathile - again no variation within the song. He latches on to a pattern in the pallavi and sticks with it till the end of the song. 80-90% of his songs are like this.You can use terms like "marana adi" etc. for bharathi kaNNamma but that just explains your preference.Knowledgable percussionists will tell you the difference.
  
  "Fortunately a common rasika is blessed with greater music sense and that is why songs like 'muthu mani maalai' , 'bharathi kannamma' have become evergreen hits inspite of monotonous rythm in one and so called paradigm of complexity in the other."
  
  a common rasika(you mean layman?) doesnt pay enough attention to all aspects of the songs and sometimes gets caried away just by the tune or by the orchestration. This is what IR calls "cheating" and he did a good job of that. But there is also a downside. Some times really deserving complex compositions (like in Kovil Pura or Baala nagamma) dont get the attention they deserve because for the same common rasika it probably sounds "haphazard". Probably an entire Zakir hussain tabla solo would sound "haphzard" to you.
  
  "Anyways, I dont regret IR's lack of focus on rhythm in the latter part of his career. It is only because of that we now have a serious WCM composer."
  
  Kiru, I cannot make any such excuses,sorry. Focus on WCM doesnt necessarily mean negligence to the ICM aspects - melody/rhythm. Then he shouldnt be called a "fusion" composer. It doesnt take much for someone of IR's calibre to do better than he did in the rhythm section, period. He was just indifferent to that aspect of the song, although rhythm was like the backbone of the song in many instances.Small variations within the song wouldnt take a lot of imagination, especially for a guy like him. He neednt have used any new rhythm instruments. With the same tabla he could have come up with different nadais. He just wasnt interested, probably felt TFM didnt deserve better or his focus was mainly on orchestration with the rhythm/melody portions taking a hit.
  Even in Mounaraagam, where you have cited Nilaave vaa as the only example, take "pani vizhum Iravu"-he establishes the beat in the prelude and sticks to to it till the end. And the rhythm is nothing extraordinary. Same with Ohoh megam vandhadho(the same pattern was also used in vaan megam, aathadi ammaadi, rojapoo adi etc. etc.) .
  Pick any 20 random songs from your IR collection today and find out the percentage of songs in which the beat pattern stays the same from start to finish, you'll know what I mean.
  No point in wasting time trying to dig up examples from here and there. There are a few songs where it is good and I have already listened to most of them.
  
  
  

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