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Serious doubt Reg IR music

Topic started by yaaro (@ 62.6.139.13) on Wed Aug 18 15:25:28 EDT 2004.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I am a diehard IR fan.
There have been gigabytes of material posted analysing IR's music-whether it be carnatic or western or folk. I hardly have seen any other MD's music being analysed and dissected as IR's.
I am a zero as far as musical technicality is concerned.
What I am curious is whether other MD's creations are not as complex as IR's-or is it that only IR's fans are music savvy-or is it that we are really complexi-fying his music.The last, I am sure is not the reason .
For eg the only comment I can remember for ARR is the famous ''kedharathukku sedharam'' comment for ennavale..

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Note Man (@ 24.11.160.43) on: Tue Aug 31 21:59:07 EDT 2004
  
  
  "GR, KVM and MSV seem to be conspicuously absent from your list."
  
  My list was not comprehensive, other notables I missed are khayyam, pendyala, ghantasala, kalyanji anandji, GKV etc. I am quite a big fan of KVM myself. Definitely, I was talking about orchestrisation complexity as there are others who have matched IRs ability in composing i.e., melody/rhythm. However, overall, I would not say 'better' but stick to 'equal', as the volume of musical output, songs and BGM, is one of my criteria for judging the merits of MDs.
  
  
• From: Naaradhar (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Wed Sep 1 06:30:07 EDT 2004
  
  " Not true, if you are talking about melody/rhythm." - another blanket statement that is thrown ,as if IR has not given challenging rythms and melodies.
  What about the complexity of rythm in songs like 'ila nenje vaa' and the intricate melody in 'kannammaa kadhal ennum kavithai sollu' ," agaaya thaamarai tharaiyil vandhadhu "? idhe IR ye paada kashtapadardhu vera vishayam.
  
  
• From: Naaradhar (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Wed Sep 1 06:31:47 EDT 2004
  
  Noteman, neenga yeppidi RDB ya omit pannalaam? King of chords avar thaampaa
  
  
• From: Note Man (@ 35.9.20.246) on: Wed Sep 1 14:20:52 EDT 2004
  
  Naaradhar,
  It was not my intention to leave out anyone. As I had said before my list is not comprehensive.
  
  " another blanket statement that is thrown ,as if IR has not given challenging rythms and melodies. "
  
  I don't think the statement means that IR has not given any challenging rhythms or melodies. I believe, it only means that there are others who have done equally well in this regard.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Wed Sep 1 18:30:27 EDT 2004
  
  "I don't think the statement means that IR has not given any challenging rhythms or melodies. I believe, it only means that there are others who have done equally well in this regard."
  
  Noteman, thanks for interpreting it correctly.
  
  Naaradhar, iLa nenje vaa has a pretty straightforward rhythm pattern, nothing complex.
  70% of IR songs has an unchanging rhythm pattern from start to finish, absolutely no variation in the charanams.Especially his tabla usage bores you to death in many songs.
  
  
• From: Naaradhar (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Thu Sep 2 06:05:25 EDT 2004
  
  iLa nenje vaa has a pretty straightforward rhythm pattern, nothing complex. - may be. But it definite sounds quite creative and innovative to my ears where as I find the haphazard rythm pattern employed by MSV( in raagangal padhinaaru, gowrimanohariyai kanden and host of songs like that, highly annoying. I prefer thaalam to be unobtrusive , paving way for the smooth flow of the song and not as stumble blocks.
  seeraana nadai thaalam is a big plus point for a well composed song .IR has given many interesting rythm like in 'meendum meendum vaa', 'oh vasantha raaja' etc
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Thu Sep 2 10:31:06 EDT 2004
  
  Naaradhar, your preference has nothing to do with this. We are talking about changing nadais within a song and imaginative/complex rhythm structures. IR has a few of them, thats all(Maanjolai kiLidhano, megam kottattum etc.). RaagangaL padhinaaru is considered a lesson in tabla usage, it would sound "haphazard" to your ears if you are used to the monotonouus tabla beats in songs like "yenge en jeevane", "muthu maNi maalai" etc. where the nadai doesnt change a bit during the song, putting both the percussionist and the listener to sleep.
  
  
• From: rajasaranam (@ 210.214.228.208) on: Thu Sep 2 14:20:41 EDT 2004
  
  sari vishayathukku vaanga 'IR has a few of them,thats all' MSV evalo vachirukkar?
  
  
• From: k (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Thu Sep 2 21:35:31 EDT 2004
  
  I think IR intentionally simplifies the melody to add harmony layers etc. To give an example, take either niRam piriththu parthEn or enna solli paaduvatho, now mask the string portion of the song out and just listen only to the vocals, it would not sound that great at all. This is where people like KVM score, you can sing their song to your hearts content. To enjoy IR's songs, you need to bring in a different set of evaluation parameters and not what applies to ICM. The linear complexity in ICM melodies is done in parallel in IR's songs.
  Re: unchanging rhythms in IRs songs, yes it is true. But in all these cases, I am sure, he would have added totally percussionless interludes (pure exploration/variations of the melody).
  
  I think 'Note Man' positioned IR correctly not pure ICM, not pure WCM but a fusion.Every new MD self-respecting tries to do something new and this is what IR does. The two songs I gave as examples are culmination of all these 30yrs or more of work in this fusion area. Nowadays he likes to give at atleast one song like this in one movie, given a chance.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Thu Sep 2 23:22:00 EDT 2004
  
  "I think IR intentionally simplifies the melody to add harmony layers etc. To give an example, take either niRam piriththu parthEn or enna solli paaduvatho, now mask the string portion of the song out and just listen only to the vocals, it would not sound that great at all"
  
  k, this is something that I remember mentioning sometime back in DF. I cited "poongatru pudhidhaanadhu" as an example too. Hmm..thirumbi enakke va? :-)
  
  Percussionless interludes is fine, but that doesnt compensate for insufficent work in the rhythm area, it merely adds to the woes. Examples of a song where IR did good work in all the three main sections of a song(melody, rhythm arrangement, orchestration) would be "Maanjolai kiLidhaano" or "adi peNNE ponnoonjal" ICM or WCM has nothing much to do with it. It is just sheer effort/imagination on the part of the composer to come up with a different rhythm arrangement for charanams as compared to the pallavi or atleast have some kind of variation from song to song.
  
  
• From: k (@ 64.172.24.208) on: Fri Sep 3 00:39:52 EDT 2004
  
  vijay, I do remember your example of poogaRRu pudhidhanadhu and dont mean to take credit away from you for discovering that. The two songs are different in that they are classical melodies based on classical raagams. The other songs is more like a stylish popular number which IR normally calls a 'guitar song" .
  I do agree on rhythm arrangments being ignored by IR. Even the same rhythm pattern on different drums would have been much better, atleast to majority of casual listeners. Listen to Ezhai geetham in the 'junk' dEvan. You will like it (except for IR's singing :))
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Fri Sep 3 01:35:39 EDT 2004
  
  k, the recent Ghana shyama from Kochu Kochu santhoshangal has a differing rhythm structure every other line - this was actually observed/mentioned by you sometime back :-) I then went back and listened to that song again after reading your post and was surprised as to how IR didnt make it sound obvious at all. It had quite a flow to it. ( On poongatru pudhidhanadhu, I didnt "discover" anything, those were just my general observations on those kind of songs, thats all)
  Adada from Pithamagan could be an example of a recent IR song that employs a not-so-simple rhythm structure, mainly because of the tune/nature/mood of the song. When the tune gets very simplistic, often the rhythm goes down along with it too. Exceptions are there. "Munnam seidha dhavam" from Vanaja Girija is an example where IR used a different rhythm structure for a song when he could have easily used a routine one(like the common 4/4). Its just that he didnt do it often enough.
  
  
• From: k (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Fri Sep 3 13:37:27 EDT 2004
  
  vijay, the varying rhythm similar to ghana shyama has been done by MSV before, maybe not everyline like in this song. That is why I consider IR a 'chip of the old block'. As you are probably aware of 'thaalak kattugal' is part and parcel of our music system. But even before MSV, our MDs recognised the popular value of rhythm arrangments. This is one of the characterising features of 'light music'. Our MDs used a novel arrangment atleast in the pallavi. IR too followed it (for eg, the song I listened to in the car today, aathu mEttula, starts a bass rhythm, drumming along with tabla and only tabla in the charanams). If you notice almost 90% of the 'hits' of IR have atleast slightly novel rhythm arrangement.
  This is the major area that current MDs are concentrating on. In an interview, chandrabose said, 'remove the rhythm arrangement, its all the same thing' with reference to current songs.
  If you see Uttam Singh's (IRs conductor) hindi work, it sounds almost like IR's tunes with a different rhythm arrangment. The same could be said of most songs of vidyasaagar. (Even though, he has gradually developing his own style in the tunes. Earlier ones, sounded like IRs song metre with a modified tune).
  
  Anyways, to me rhythm/tabla sound does not matter that much if the overall content/complexity in the song is very high. One poster here mentioned, that the current MDs are doing more complex music. I would like to see some examples given here.
  
  
• From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Fri Sep 3 18:19:44 EDT 2004
  
  I sure don't listen to muthumani maalai and enge en jeevane expecting some kind of rythm fireworks. I enjoy these songs for their sheer melody and orchestration. But I cannot stand the tabla assault to my sensitive ears in songs like raagangal 16. Yes, this song is a lesson how not to use a tabla
  
  
• From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Fri Sep 3 18:40:18 EDT 2004
  
  k, what do you feel about the rythms in these songs? Aren't these interesting? novel?
  'kala kalakkum maniyosai' - eeramaana rojaave
  'maapillaikku maaman manasu' - netrikaN
  'Adi netriravu nadandhadhenru nee arivaayo' - innisai mazhai
  
  
• From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Fri Sep 3 18:40:29 EDT 2004
  
  k, what do you feel about the rythms in these songs? Aren't these interesting? novel?
  'kala kalakkum maniyosai' - eeramaana rojaave
  'maapillaikku maaman manasu' - netrikaN
  'Adi netriravu nadandhadhenru nee arivaayo' - innisai mazhai
  
  

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