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Serious doubt Reg IR music

Topic started by yaaro (@ 62.6.139.13) on Wed Aug 18 15:25:28 EDT 2004.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I am a diehard IR fan.
There have been gigabytes of material posted analysing IR's music-whether it be carnatic or western or folk. I hardly have seen any other MD's music being analysed and dissected as IR's.
I am a zero as far as musical technicality is concerned.
What I am curious is whether other MD's creations are not as complex as IR's-or is it that only IR's fans are music savvy-or is it that we are really complexi-fying his music.The last, I am sure is not the reason .
For eg the only comment I can remember for ARR is the famous ''kedharathukku sedharam'' comment for ennavale..

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: BT (@ 24.16.80.37) on: Sun Aug 29 15:44:42 EDT 2004
  
  pANdiyan,
  
  After "reading" about your comments, I took the efforts to "listen" to the link you posted. It's a wonderful interview... this guy, Jegath kept praising IR almost all through the interview.
  
  First off, I didn't know who this guy Jegath was until I listened to this interview... even now, I don't know if he's some kind of an authority to take his "praisings" seriously... For all I know, the interview sounded like one with any of the Hard-Core IR fans (for example, yaaro, who started this thread or kamalanath, who uses phrases like "no one other than him")
  
  Reading the topic description again, yaaro says "He's got a serious doubt!"... what's his doubt?
  
  1. Are other MDs creating as complex music as IR did?
  2. Are only IR Fans music Savvy?
  3. Are we just complexi-fying IR's music.
  
  He went on and dismissed the last option himself.
  
  Now, based on his comments, I don't know where he's got the doubt... seems like he's already neck deep in prejudiced waters.
  
  And now on to "Note Man's" outrage on "Guess Me's" comments. By saying there are many others in TFM who have performed well or sometimes better than IR, "Guess Me" has chosen to ignore/belitte IR!!! But seriously, it's my opinion that "Note Man" has chosen to ignore the objective truth!
  
  (Where are the flamings???)
  
  
  
• From: pANdiyan (@ 136.2.1.101) on: Sun Aug 29 17:14:38 EDT 2004
  
  BT, if someone is interviewed by SunTV/JayaTV/Anadhavikatan et al within the same time period, he is `somebody' at least for that time period...though he sounds like a typical DF'er:-)
  
  
• From: Saadha DFer (@ 130.127.105.187) on: Sun Aug 29 20:07:37 EDT 2004
  
  Better to be an 'ORDINARY DFer who takes pains night-and-day to project musical work of a religion other than his' than to be a DF-er who goes and trashes all threads of MDs for whom he has a vehement dislike.
  
  
• From: Note Man (@ 24.11.160.43) on: Sun Aug 29 22:17:04 EDT 2004
  
  BT,
  It is easy to say someone is better than someone, as long as no one questions your opinion. And, thats exactly what I have done to 'GM's comments.
  
  What the heck do you mean 'where are the flammings'? You're the one who's provoking others to flame you.
  
  I am well aware of the objective truth. It is you who is interpreting my comments as you like. I have only asked GM to provide me with his criteria of 'better'. And, his comments in this thread and as well as other threads show that he cannot stand IR fans' devotion to IR. He is the one who is after everyone asking them to change their devotion and adulation for IR. If that doesn't constitute belittling, I don't know what does. My 'outrage' on GM was based on his past history of postings and not on what he said in that particular post. But I am sure you have seen your own version of 'objective truth' from my posting and formed your own 'opinion'.
  
  Your whole posting seemed to lack any kind of seriousness, what was all that quote marks doing "listen" "reading"?? do you mean to say u were not actually reading or listening in the truest sense?? Are you trying to make fun of other DFers??
  
  So, you have made your own conclusion about Fr.Jegath that he is just another hard-core IR fan. So, maybe, dear Fr. Jegath is not an authority, but what about Naushad, SPB, MBK, KJY etc who have made similar comments. Are you incapable of forming your own opinion? Why do you need someone in authority to tell you how good IR is ?? Why can't go and listen to his music and form your own opinion? I have formed my opinions, good or bad, on ARRs, MSVs, etc, music after listening to their songs and not from the comments of others.
  
  So, there your wish of 'flamming' is fulfilled. I am now ready for your 'flamming', but expect me to respond only to evocative postings and not to provocative postings.
  
  Saadha DFer, I could never have put it better than that. Thanks.
  
  
• From: x (@ 156.153.255.212) on: Mon Aug 30 05:05:39 EDT 2004
  
  yaaro : the question u asked like asing back to like are u a human or animal or alien?.
  
  
• From: BT (@ 207.46.238.133) on: Mon Aug 30 17:05:28 EDT 2004
  
  :)
  
  Thanks Note Man, for fulfilling my 'flame' desire!
  
  Please forgive me, for I didn't go through GM's past history of postings. I didn't know you expected me to do that before coming to an "objective" decision.
  
  I am obliged to do some explaining here...
  
  The quotes on "listen" and "read" were to stress the point laid out by pANdiyan (refer to his posting). It was done out of respect to pANdiyan's request to "listen" to the interview!
  
  In my posting, I never mentioned anything about my opinion about IR. I did mention about my opinion about you though - which I formed based on first hand information :) If however, I come across a known person, say a friend, who explains how knowledgeable you are when it comes to music, I might change my opinion.
  
  "Are you incapable of forming your own opinion?" - Good question. If everyone formed his own opinion, why would there be a discussion forum? And why should pANdiyan even take the pains of posting Jegath's interview here? And why should you rope in Naushad, SPB, MBK, KJY, etc? You just contradicted yourself there.
  
  Now, coming back to the topic, IR produced excellent music back in his times and sometimes even now... But there are many music directors in and outside of Tamil, who produce better and complex (complex isn't always better) music!
  
  Music is something that keeps evolving... people experiment with sounds and come up with newer nuances in music that are much complex than anything before. For that matter, every field of art is constantly evolving. Today's Musicians perform better than yesterday's. Tomorrow's Musicians *will* perform better than today's. Some of yesterday's musicians have been ahead of their times - we call them geniuses. IR was one. But that doesn't mean there is none other than just IR.
  
  
• From: MusicFan (@ 129.237.172.72) on: Mon Aug 30 18:49:12 EDT 2004
  
  BT,
  
  If you want to know what guitar prasanna had to say about the complex yet magical compositions of IR, please visit
  
  www.raaja.com/guitarprasanna/
  
  IR is equally adept in both carnatic and western classical. He has handled WCM concepts such as counterpoints, harmony, invertible couterpoints extremely well.
  
  Having said that, if you expand IR's songs as written score sheets, you can see many lines (providing harmony and counterpoints following the rules of WCM) that accompany the main melody line. As far as i know , this is called orchestration as opposed to rhythm based compositions.
  
  There might be several lines accompnaying the main melody in rhythm based compositions and most of them are just repititive patterns or loops that enhance the feel without following the rules of any form of music.
  
  IR orchestrates most of his songs where as most songs of other MDs that I have listened till date have been either simple (with just percussion) or rhythm based compositions.
  
  Now tell me which is complex.
  
  
• From: MusicFan (@ 129.237.172.72) on: Mon Aug 30 18:51:31 EDT 2004
  
  in the above post,
  
  read
  
  There might be several lines accompnaying the main melody in rhythm based compositions and most of them are just repititive patterns or loops that enhance the feel without following the rules of any form of music.
  
  as
  
  There might be several lines accompanying the main melody in rhythm based compositions, but most of them are just repititive patterns or loops that enhance the feel without following the rules of any form of music.
  
  
• From: Naaradhar (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Tue Aug 31 09:42:40 EDT 2004
  
  As in the words of a western composer, who listened to IRs symphony, "your ears will hear music as never before"- echoes my sentiment cent percent.MSV/KVM/Ramamurthy/Salil all have given some truly fantastic songs. But I have never experienced the kind of ecstasy from them which I derive when I hear IR's songs like
  "paruvame"
  "madai thirandhu"
  "uravennum pudhiya vaanil"
  "nilavu paatu"
  "paatu solli"
  "niram pirithu paarthen"
  "andhi mazhai"
  "kaaviriye kavikuyille kanmaniye nee vaa" and lot more. I don't think it has got anything to do with just complexity. It is the richness of tune melody and orchestration in the right mix and the inherent haunting nature to touch the soul.
  
  
• From: Note Man (@ 35.9.20.85) on: Tue Aug 31 14:42:37 EDT 2004
  
  "Are you incapable of forming your own opinion?" - Good question. If everyone formed his own opinion, why would there be a discussion forum? And why should pANdiyan even take the pains of posting Jegath's interview here? And why should you rope in Naushad, SPB, MBK, KJY, etc?
  "
  You just contradicted yourself there.
  "
  
  BT sir, if I had said these statements in the reverse order then you are correct. I had only given examples of more knowledgable people commenting on IR, when you said that Fr.Jegath is not a known music personality. And, after that I had asserted you to follow your own heart instead of depending on others comments.
  And if you want to listen to knowledgable peoples technical comments on IRs music, you will find that there is plenty of material available on the web. On newtfmpage itself, there have been plenty of threads where a single song of IR has been analysed from different aspects of technicality.
  
  
  " But there are many music directors in and outside of Tamil, who produce better and complex (complex isn't always better) music! "
  
  That is exactly the point. But IRs seemingly simple songs are actually quite complex to comprehend if you are music student or have enough knowledge of music. Just to show that I am not making lay comments on IRs ability, I want to tell you that I have listened far and wide. I have listened to S. Rajeshwara Rao, AM Raja, C.Ramachandra, SDB, RDB, Salil Chowdhary, Naushad, LP, Shakar-Jaikishan, Satyajit Ray and almost all famous Indian MDs after 1970s. They have all given brilliant songs and continuous hits. But as Music Fan said there is a fundamental difference in the way IR makes music. You will have to search really hard to find some one who has done as many successful experiments as IR has done. Salil Chowdhary was one of the few select who did experiments similar to IR but his output was limited. There are great people who have excelled in way better than IR in say ICM in India or WCM in the West, but there has been *none* who has excelled at this art of fusion as IR has. In fact, I would say that he is the one who has truly formalized fusion and gave it a different meaning from 'jugal bandi' which is usually treated as fusion. People have come up great (fusion) compositions now and then, but could not duplicate the success rate or complexity of IRs music.
  
  Leave alone the songs, if you look at the amount of BGM he has produced no one comes even close to that. You will have to look at the world scene to find someone who has done such astounding work.
  You might say the number of movies he did contributed to the volume, but then the success rate was also quite high. And, before his advent BGM was not even part of the film music, he underlined its importance and breathed life into many mediocre movies. If you read the articles on IRs music, you will know that we are actually missing some of his great pieces as there is dearth of talent who can play his complex compositions. He is truly a master of orchestrization and was/is way ahead of his time.
  
  
  I will be definitely interested in knowing the names of other unsung talented people who have done similar work and listen to their music, if you feel that these are the people who are better than IR at this art. I hope that you can provide such info as names and albums which maybe helpful if you know them and reasons as to why you feel they are better. Not that not knowing their names makes IR automatically better, his talent is truly great and he remains one of the greatest composers the world has known. TIA.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue Aug 31 19:32:02 EDT 2004
  
  "But IRs seemingly simple songs are actually quite complex to comprehend if you are music student or have enough knowledge of music."
  
  Only true, if you are talking about orchestration.(Again, re-recording for movies falls under orchestration) Not true, if you are talking about melody/rhythm. There have been MDs before IR who have done equally good if not better in these two areas, even in terms of "complexity". GR, KVM and MSV seem to be conspicuously absent from your list.
  
  

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