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Musical Merits &Demerits of IR and ARR [Only for fans, not fanatics!]

Topic started by V (@ 147.129.99.180) on Thu Jul 17 16:26:37 EDT 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

To bring our healthy/unhealthy discussion on music merits and demeits of IRR and ARR out of the Thangar Bacchaan thread I starting this thread so that it would be more appropriate.

I expect people who post here to be fans and not typical fanatics. Expecially the young ARR fans and the "Theevira" Raja fans

Thanks!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Prabhu (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Fri Sep 12 17:56:22 EDT 2003
  
  When religion is something between you and God, the only person who knows you best, why do you guys want to argue about which group should have right to worship rituals...No human being can understand you better than He who created you.
  
  Besides the finer arts like music/education are meant to refine you so you can be civilised and learn to live in harmony with your fellow beings, not for starting wars between jalra mandrams for MDs :-))
  
  
• From: MusicIsLife (@ 67.85.193.232) on: Sat Sep 13 00:52:07 EDT 2003
  
  RS,
  I surely cannot/can accept you since i have not been in india for the past 10 years.. anyways, I dont want to argue on this topic where there is a Castism based thing even in an art like Music (which i consider divine).
  Sanskrit is more structured in Vedic chantings than Tamizh songs by gr8 lyricists where by Tamizh songs could go with any raaga and any meter ( I am strictly mentioning the hymns of Manickavasagar, arunagirinathar and the likes)
  
  
  
• From: MADDY (@ 203.94.233.77) on: Sat Sep 13 04:01:03 EDT 2003
  
  hey sorry to break an interesting topic bet'n MIL and RS , but i spotted 1 demerit of IR so i wanted to tell u guys...... Nursat Fateh ali khan is an equal genius from Pakistan,but he became successful bcos he used to provide sufi music in a western Background, so he became famous in India too, but IR's Music though scintillating cannot be appreciated by normal ppl. from other cultures.......... this is the main reason y IR is not as famous as ARR........
  
  
• From: Vel (@ 219.65.97.211) on: Sat Sep 13 05:39:18 EDT 2003
  
  Some strong comments citing merits in IR's music, as seen by some celebs.
  
  http://www.geocities.com/ilaiyaragam/celeb_speak.html
  
  
  
• From: MusicIsLife (@ 67.85.193.232) on: Sat Sep 13 12:52:11 EDT 2003
  
  Maddy!!
  I have been telling for a very looooooooong time that is the difference, IR's merit lies there, where he had the base to be Tamizh Folk, or whatever South-Indian base and then layered with WCM and other types of Music..
  I agree that IR is not as famous as ARR, but where is the question? I am thinking with the current generation..
  
  
• From: rajasaranam (@ 210.214.128.168) on: Sat Sep 13 16:12:34 EDT 2003
  
  MIL,
  
  I dont want to argue on this topic where there is a Castism based thing even in an art like Music (which i consider divine).
  
  well thats the truth.
  
  
• From: rajasaranam (@ 210.214.128.168) on: Sat Sep 13 16:26:55 EDT 2003
  
  Sanskrit is more structured ......
  may be thats becos there were no attempts in changing that as it was considered holy. but i liked ARR's attempt in this like the 'maangalyam thanthunaane' in the movie alaipayuthae.[ thoug iam against it, as he makes everything sound western. he cud ve tried to do it differently]. while in the movie mudalvan the BGM at certain places where Arjun appears was said that it was a sanskrit shloka.i really dunno was it or wasnt it as i followed that to be some english nursery rhyme.
  
  Has IR attempted to do this before?
  
  Regarding the issue of god may be tamilians were more liberal than the sanskrit pundits. hence these kinds of liberty r allowed in tamil hyms. this is IMO only may be iam wrong.
  
  
• From: V (@ 147.129.98.3) on: Sat Sep 13 19:47:26 EDT 2003
  
  "Itho oru ponnu vedam padikka vaikiren ungalala ennada panna mudiyum"
  
  -Alleged as said by IR
  
  
  I want proof from you rajasaranam that IR said such a thing.
  
  
  I met IR when he came to meet the Shankaracharya of Kanchi 3 years ago. He had come with Karthik Raja and they talked about the music school they were trying to establish.
  
  IR is a big devotee of Kanchi Swamigal! Swamigal had good words for IR and advice on the Music school. If he had wanted he could have asked IR not to do such a thing since he is a paraiyan.
  
  
  But exaggerating and amplifying your innermost anger on antiquated oppresion of "some" tyrannical brahmins will do nothing but incite some of us here.
  
  Do you know the basis for the caste system?? The caste system was established on the basis of the occupation of men so that each man would "ONLY" work in the occupation of his caste!
  
  So if you belong to the driver caste, your job is only to drive. If you belong to farmer caste, your job is farming etc...
  
  
  This ensured perpetual economic subsistence for all castes as their job was secured. Similarly for Brahmins, they alone can perform pooja to gods since they are accoutred with the vedic knowledge.
  
  More than that they perform so many Anushtaanaqs which keep them away from the world. They did not eat nonsense like Fish, Mutton etc and go to temple. HOw dare can someone aspire to touch god when they have consumed a dead animal??
  
  To maintain the purity a Brahmin had to take a bath even if he went for a leak, becos he has to serve the gods with utmost purity!
  
  So even the Maharajas gave aid to Brahmins to do pooja in temples. THe vedas(or shastras) say that a brahmin should live on what is donated to him. He should only earn as much as needs and donate rest to other poor people.
  
  However this rule was terribly broken by lots of brahmins and they thought they were superior to everybody becos the kings themselves bowed to them for Pooja. They slowly took advantage of this and started oppressing the lower caste people.
  
  
  This was really regrettable. I standby anyone who condemns this! But I for one believe wholly in the Vedas and its essnce. I also believe very very strongly that Women (be it brahmin or not) should never recite it.
  
  
• From: V (@ 147.129.98.3) on: Sat Sep 13 19:51:40 EDT 2003
  
  
  Women have their own set of shlokas like Lalita Sahasranamam, Abirami Andhadhi, Soundarya Lahari etc.
  
  Why do they have to chant the vedas?? Vedas are not like IR, ARR music which you can happily hear in Casette and recite it wrongly. First, you need a guru, then you have to take an upadesam from the guru, then you have to take a sankalpam to do it regularly. Your mind should be purified. You cannot recite vedas one day and look at Anna Kournikova the next day and say "Ai semma katta!"
  
  
  Ofcourse 99.99999999999% of Brahmin youth today are ridiculously corrupt. Want more? the spoilt beer-guzzling whores you see in Madras are all brahmin girls from brahmin families.
  
  
  So I am not at all saying Brahmins are pure today and all that. But the caste system was established not to opress anyone but it was eventually abused so much so that it was seen as an oppression rule-game.
  
  Shankaracharya himself prostrated to a paraiyan when he was won over. SO it is not a scorn inscripted in the hearts of brahmins to loathe paraiyans.
  
  I know I am going to be lambasted for the following. To recite the vedas you have to earn your Brahmin-hood. To earn your Brahmin-hood you have to do good karma!
  
  
  You cannot say - No I cant wait for next Janma, I will break all rules and in this Janma itself I will learn Vedas. I mean,,, Ofcourse you can, But the vedas wont do anything to you and there is no use!
  
  
• From: V (@ 147.129.98.3) on: Sat Sep 13 19:57:25 EDT 2003
  
  Rajasaranam,
  
  Sanskrit was 100s of times more complicated and structured than what it is now.
  
  Panini took up the job of simplifying sanskrit and he defined the relatively simple structure of sanskrit that exists today.
  
  Also Sanskrit is the ONLY ONLY ONLY language in the world that dos not have slangs and dialects.
  
  You speak as you write and read. There is nothing called Spoken sanskrit and written sanskrit. both are the same
  
  There are no gazillion different slangs like Madras's rowdy "Naina epdi kirra?", Madras's student porikis "machi rupture panraanba!", Coimbatore Kounder's "Kounderre, undra veetula enna visesham?" Tirunelveli Nadar's "Annachi adha yen Kekkeeha"
  
  Sanskrit was one unity that was spoken by everyone alike! No rowdy slangs and no lazy acronyms!
  
  
• From: V (@ 147.129.98.3) on: Sat Sep 13 20:01:46 EDT 2003
  
  It is very laughable for me to look at Tamil sometimes.
  
  
  They are very proud to be the only language to have the letter "zha" which itself is a fallacy becos Malayalam has the letter "zha" too!
  
  
  Also Malayalees know how to pronounce their unique letter "zha". But our makkal ??????????hahahahahahahahahahahahah
  
  Most of them say "Palam", "malai" instead of pazham and mazhai!hahahaha
  
  Pls do not mistake me. I am not anti-tamil. But anti Veera-Tamizh howlers!!!! Atleast I am not speaking what some other DFer called "a mughal inspired concoction" in the name of National Language!
  
  
• From: MusicIsLife (@ 67.85.193.232) on: Sun Sep 14 07:09:20 EDT 2003
  
  V,
  I agree to the points where you said about how the caste system evolved.
  But surely dont agree to the opinion where you are against Women chanting Vedas (it is your opinion), If you think If there is a GURU who can teach them, it is good, then well they can recite. My point was Vedas as such does not Stop one from reciting the mantras!! This is exactly where I am not able to agree to you. Otherwise it is fine..
  One sincere question: Is malayalam derived from parts of Tamil? If yes then it will inherit zha from it? am i rite, I dont know the history of Malayalam though my mother is a malayalee...
  
  
• From: V (@ 147.129.97.246) on: Sun Sep 14 16:23:49 EDT 2003
  
  Malayalam is the closest language to Sanskrit of all Indian languages. Lots of words are prefectly borrowed from sanskrit.
  
  I know Tamil borrows from sanskrit a lot too, but the words are twisted. Malayalam borrows it and maintains the sweetness.
  
  MIL,
  
  It is not my personal opinion, but you can ask the Shankaracharyas or any parampara spiritual guru whether Women can recite Vedas. Why that?? You can ask the purohitas that come for functions at your house whether their wives recite the vedas.
  
  I am not sure of the source (I guess it is Vaidyanatha deekshitam) but there is definitely an inscribed rule in Hindusim that vedas can only be chanted under upadesam from a guru. Women are not enrolled as disciples for vedic chanting. Ofcourse Women are allowed to chant various mantras that have monochromatic swara structure like Lalitha sahasranamam, soundarya lahari. Each and ever sloka in those have the same swaras. So the vibrations are gentle I guess.
  
  And also Vedas are not chanted for one's own benefit. It is chantyed for "Loka-Kshemam". A brahmin is the only one allowed to chant them and he has to do it regularly as it is his duty to pary for the whole world including, animals and pakshis(birds)
  
  I want to elaborate more but I am fraid of commiting the sin of giving wrong information. I suggest you as someone who is an authority on these issues in your family. As far as I know I can bet that Kanchi Paramacharya was against women chanting vedas.
  
  
• From: MusicIsLife (@ 67.85.193.232) on: Sun Sep 14 17:09:39 EDT 2003
  
  V,
  May be you are right.. If you see my previous post, i told the same thing, i am not the authority or even close knowing things, all i have done is learnt, but still finding meaning and correlation between lot of stuff. Surely ask my Guru who taught me the Thaithriya manthrakosham.
  As for as Lokha-shemam I do agree..
  Will research into it.
  
  I have to look into the Language History to really talk otherwise i dont have that many points to quote. Till that time, i will agree to your points, and I seem to differ from my research.
  
  Nothing more, thanks.. I guess this is the kind of DF discussions we should engage in rather than Mudslinglings..
  
  Thanks for making it sane once again.
  
  
  

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