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Musical Merits &Demerits of IR and ARR [Only for fans, not fanatics!]

Topic started by V (@ 147.129.99.180) on Thu Jul 17 16:26:37 EDT 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

To bring our healthy/unhealthy discussion on music merits and demeits of IRR and ARR out of the Thangar Bacchaan thread I starting this thread so that it would be more appropriate.

I expect people who post here to be fans and not typical fanatics. Expecially the young ARR fans and the "Theevira" Raja fans

Thanks!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: agneye (@ 209.48.32.2) on: Fri Sep 12 14:44:17 EDT 2003
  
  This is to V (@ 147.129.97.242)
  
  There is no such rules stated anywhere that women can not learn vedas. Offcourse Most of them are not interested in. And also same goes for use of technologies like mic.. You will find many female characters all through the history like this one kashmiri bramhin girl which debated with sankaracharya .. etc. and in the vedas itself we respect nearly 10-12 important forces in female form like Sarswati.
  
  
• From: rajasaranam (@ 210.214.128.144) on: Fri Sep 12 15:27:38 EDT 2003
  
  "According to our religion the vedas, puranas, mantras, and any religious material should not be propogated by microphone and should not be altered or mingled with other swaras."- V.
  
  The basis of notorious and timeless class system and Indians being poor communicators. India could've gone the Taliban way if not for the great British people.- Alleluah.
  
  That they hadn't gone the Taliban way, 2300 years before the British came is example enough that it would not have happened.-Jag.
  
  u guys wait for smallest aoppurtunity to attack on hindus????? - MADDY.
  
  The Vedas have been passed on to us thru eons by no medium (such as paper, audio, video)and only by recital and hearing. The rule to be followed for vedas is that they should not be mixed with technology like microphone etc.Also women should not recite the vedas.- V.
  
  The complete Post - MIL.
  
  i didnt want to express my opinions as this was beyond the boundaries of music. but as it has progressed too much i hav to express my views. Sorry for disgression....
  
  
• From: rajasaranam (@ 210.214.128.144) on: Fri Sep 12 15:28:20 EDT 2003
  
  on alleluahs post i agree-disagree, 50-50
  
  It was the britishers who had given eductaion to the people coming up frm social classes other than Brahmins. while there were convertions, frm the native religion, to the new found christianity, people got eductaion, shaking up the caste system but caste system did not fade away with this because even christianity included caste system and all those ills prevalent in the native religion was present here too. getting educated made the people realise abt their freedom and fight for it. Jags question on why this did not happen in the past 2000 yrs or so gets an answer here, that they were unaware of their freedom. the Britishers part was well over at that point. while trying to keep social harmony, they gav us the new democratic system to rule, where they had to find hurdles, like people frm lower castes shudnt be allowed to vote etc., they removed one by one like giving reservation, passing a rule against sati, child marriage, to allow lower castes to enter into temples etc., which made hindus to reconsider their view on various issues they had for past 2000 yrs.all this said i accept only bcos of britishers these people got to taste what freedom is. and the issue V spoke about that Vedas shudnt be propogated has a strong root in the caste system, that other than brahmins shudnt learn veda [ manu shashtra speaks elaborately on the rights of each and every caste].After the intial shaking up of this system by Britishers, still there is long way to go.....
  
  This attitude of christians that they r sole saviours of the whole earth is clearly understood frm Christs stand himself. The role of saviours has been seized away frm Britishers to the Americans as of today. Both being christian majoritarian rules, Both transgress into others territory and try to appear their saviours while their ulterior motive is imperialism. they become the saviours of oppressed in India, they become the saviours of afghan, syria , Iraq and every corner of the world wherever they find a oppurtunity to enrich themselves with the native wealth. there is a famous poem of africa which says " when they came they had bible, we had our land. now we hav their bible they hav all our land." Hence accepting only Britishers are the liberators of the oppressed people is false. for example after the Empire striked Afghan and Iraq sure people r going to taste some freedom frm the tyranny of past rulers. but finally theyll be exploited more than they were before.
  
  
• From: rajasaranam (@ 210.214.128.144) on: Fri Sep 12 15:28:58 EDT 2003
  
  V's stand on IRs attempt at Thiruvaasagam is a clear brahminical viewpoint and this doesnot apply for our gr8 RAAja. Though IR was by birth a paraiyan [an untouchable according to hindhu dharma], excelled in a field, dominated by brahmins, when oppurtunity was given more than any brahmin cudve done. and he had been breaking the rules set upon by the uppercaste fascists right frm the begining. immtly upon his entry into the field there was a gr8 uprooar frm the uppercaste people, that how cud a untouchable compose music which is an art that is for Uppercastes only. The dancer Padma subramaniam went all the way to court alleging that IR's Annakili tunes were originally hers and IR hav stolen it.the case was dismissed as it had no grounds. The famous violonist kunnakudi vaithiyanaathan [ he was frm pillai caste. by brahminism i mean anybody whoever accepts this caste system and vouch for it it can be a devar, kounder or mudaliyaar.] stated that only uppercastes hav the right to compose music and none other has that right. after IR's initial successe KV found that IR was becoming successful only becos of folk music, and he also tried to beat IR by composing songs like 'ennadi muniyamma' but IR was proving beyond everything already and people of TN rejoiced on their new found hero. When a comment frm classical musicians came that 'ithu thavul company romba naal nilaikaathu. carnataga sangeetham thaan unmayana sangeetham' IR replied 'naai kuraipathum sangeetham thaan'.
  
  [This hindu sanathana dharma has crucified many like sambukan-a born low caste, killed by Rama for learning Vedas. Chipping of the thumb of Eklavya - a born Aadivaasi, since Archery was a shatriyaas profession. Or killing the five low castes who came asking alms in Wax palace, cos these peoples body soul and mind are not their own and can be used by the upper castes as they will. and all these will be justified in geetha stating its their fate! ]
  
  IR was giving shock thro his compostions, to every hardcore brahminists who tried to crush him, jus bcos he was a born Paraiyan. he learnt sanskrit, which was denied to lower castes. he composed an album called 'vedic chants' making a 8 yr old girl recite Vedas. he wud ve thought 'pombala vedam padikka koodaatha? itho oru ponnu vedam padikka vaikiren ungalala ennada panna mudiyum'. he made chamber welcome thyagaraaja and invited Bach to TN. He made punithamaana thevaram shake hands with dappankuthu [ rakamma kaiya thattu]. 'isai moolamaga hindu sanathana dharmathin vergalai asaithu paarpathil vetri kaandar'. this makes them angry thats why a person like Cho can openly state in 'minsara kanavu' cassette release function that 'MSV kku appuram thirai isai ketpathayae nirithitaen aana romba naal kalichu Rahman music enna kavaruthu.' [RAhman muslim enbathu mukkiyam illai, avar mudaliyaar by birth athu mukkiyam. inga ellame pirapaal theermanikkapadanum]My god he erased 20 yrs frm History! 20 yrs - thats wat a hardcore brahminist can do to our IR. but IR keeps 'Breaking the Rules'. and i wish him a grand success on his Thiruvaasagam project.
  
  
• From: rajasaranam (@ 210.214.128.144) on: Fri Sep 12 16:11:25 EDT 2003
  
  Breaking the rules is not something new to IR. all his film compositions stand proof for this. apart frm this his non-film albums like NBW and HTNI proves it.moreover i happened to read his literary venture 'venba nanmaalai' recently which had a section called paamara venba written in folk tamizh. rules state venba to be written in classical tamizh. [Venba is very difficult to write as it contains many rules. lastly it was attempted by tamil poet pugazhendi in 12th century].
  Recently i happend to discuss on Thiruvaasagam project with a major person behind that project. he said that IR has promised to giv a new dimension to Symphony by fusing Tamil folk, classical and WCM. actualluy this was wat he attempted in his first Symphony for RPHS and the critics over there didnt accept it. he had used instruments like naadaswaram, tavil, parai, mrudangam and thabala along with the stipulated 77 instruments and he used tamil folk rhythm patterns.incidentaly it lead to copyrights problems as RPHS held that for the scores he had written and tehy asked him change those within the accepted norms. Ir didnt give away he stood clear on his stand that his understanding of Symphony is that it uses various instruments and tune patterns with points counter points etc., to bring about an overall pattern. and finally he lost interst in arguing with them.
  this is where IR stands as a hero for us. he doesnt give away easily. he stands for his ideals and tries to take the music of this land wherever possible. previously when discussing on composing for Hollywood movies i stated to MIL that he wasted an oppurtunity for the film 'Bloodstone'. in that movie too he attempted to giv Bgm based on this lands music. we fans of IR wud think that he has wasted that oppurtunity or the oppurtunity at RPHS but IR is clear on his stands wherever, whever possible he'll try to take and get recognition for our cultural music.
  
  
• From: MusicIsLife (@ 170.146.91.6) on: Fri Sep 12 16:40:20 EDT 2003
  
  RS:
  Whatever you kind-a said is true.. except the Brahminic part, which I surely cannot understand. coz I did not see in my life time that much oppression you are talking about being learning Sanskrit
  
  You also missed out the point what i said, the fact about Sanskrit, vedic recitals and on the other hand Tamizh padal recitals.
  
  PPl should listen to Dharamapuram Swaminathan or Anantharama Dikshitar to know exactly how they made all those Tamizh hymns very easy to learn and sing..
  
  I believe in the singing the Praise of Lord in the Local language (that the person understands) this is what the gr8 Kirupananda variyar always mentioned in all his discourses
  
  That is where Tamizh is gr8 and IR is gr8
  
  And btw when IR came into Music with Annakili Was the industry dominated by brahmins??? i guess it was b4 MSV, when TR Mahalingam, Ranjith and all those ppl were acting..
  
  
• From: rajasaranam (@ 210.214.128.144) on: Fri Sep 12 17:21:02 EDT 2003
  
  MIL,
  
  manu shashtra is the rule book for each and every caste and it clearly states that people other than Brahmins shudnt learn. be it veda or any other scriptures. but as i had already said all these rules were shaken a bit with the entry of Britishers. even Ambedkar learnt Sanskrit in those days. so as of now learning sanskrit shudnt be a problem even in my school [kv] they taught us sanskrit irrespective of caste. But there is more to be changed in this system, thats wat i meant. for instance when Jayalalitha's earlier Govt. [1991-1996] opened up a school for vedic studies. all applications by lowercastes were rejected. even six months back i saw an ad in thehindu which asked people to join for vedic courses. the advt. clearly stated only brahmins will be allowed.
  
  ...You also missed out the point what i said, the fact about Sanskrit, vedic recitals and on the other hand Tamizh padal recitals.
  i cant get u, pls elaborate on this.
  ...I believe in the singing the Praise of Lord in the Local language (that the person understands) this is what the gr8 Kirupananda variyar always mentioned in all his discourses.
  
  nice to know that uve got similar views. but alas our system has got so many obstacles for people like us. When karunanidhi Govt. passed a rule that Tamil hyms shud be sung in temples the priest were against it stating that Sanskrit is 'deva mozhi' and god can understand only that. Karunanidhi retorted back with all the pun 'tamizh theriyadha kadavul tamizh naatil irukka vaendam'. even after that u can see in temples that there is board kept 'bakthargal virumbinaal, ingu tamizhilum mandiram sollapadum'. pazha.nedumaran challenged the priests and kept a ballot box in madurai meenakshi temple asking peopel give their opinion on which language they wanted the matras. tamizh won by 85% people wanting that. he asked the priets to remove the board and keep a board stating 'bakthargal virumbinaal, ingu samaskrithathilum madiram odhapadum'. it was never done. when i asked a preist in tirunelveli nellaiyappar temple to chant tamil maantrams he saw me so cheaply and recited without any interest.
  
  And btw when IR came into Music with Annakili Was the industry dominated by brahmins??? i guess it was b4 MSV, when TR Mahalingam, Ranjith and all those ppl were acting..
  
  as far as my knowledge MSV is palakadu iyer. I was speaking abt TFM industry not the other parts. if there were any other non-brahmin MD before IR, may be they were frm upper castes not sure an untoucahble.and i clearly said that by brahminists i mean whoever accepts this caste system and manu shashtra. even vedic texts hav this verses stating frm which part of the brahma's body each class is born.head-brahman, shoulder- kshatriya, thigh- vaishya, feet - shudra. the untouchables/ panjamas doesnt even hav a space in his body. Gandhiji termed them as harijans to be born frm vishnu while periyaar said they were born to their respective parents :-)
  
  

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