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Raga of song please

Topic started by Gopal Prasad (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on Sat May 17 07:42:45 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

The popular notation used on this page. The twelve notes of an octave are the following.

1   2   3   4   5   6   7  8   9  10  11  12
S  R1  R2  R3  G3  M1  M2  P  D1  D2  D3  N3
       G1  G2                     N1  N2

Download/Upload raga based songs.

"Raga based film songs" Database | Old Database | Indian Classical Music Forum | Hindi Raaga of Songs Thread

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Thu Aug 1 19:15:36 EDT 2002
  
  yes. sk, it is aruL :-)
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.64.198.150) on: Thu Aug 1 19:46:28 EDT 2002
  
  Hi hihi, sk, Sindhu and Ram
  
  THe rule is very simple and straight forward. The parent raga of a given janya raga is usually the first raga in the 72 melakartha scheme which has the same notes as the janya raga. There are always exceptions to the rule. Some ragas are placed under different mela ragas based on the gamakams, prayogams, rasam of the janya raga. Mohanam is a classic example. It has been placed under several ragas - including Harikhambodhi, Shankarabharanam, kalyaNi etc. by different schools of thought. But the general rule is to place it under the first raga with the given set of notes :-)
  
  THis has been posted and reposted several times before and hence the hesitation :-) Sorry about that :-)
  
  Sindhu - AandhoLika is one such example.
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Thu Aug 1 20:02:03 EDT 2002
  
  i thought you were going to write about rageshri/ravichandrika :-))) what you wrote above is, of course!! :-), well known. in fact, at times, i use the (notes of the) janyams (ex., mohanam) to fix the (notes of the) janakams (harikAmbodhi). thanks anyway.
  
  a couple of questions i have been having for a LONG time (but i think MS might have answered the first one LOng time ago :-) ):
  (1) is it ok to say that a particular song to be in such and such a ragam when the bhAvam/emotion of the rAgam is not apparent? (lots of IR's songs do not qualify, imho, to be set in a rAgam if we take this attitude.) (MS once wrote that the exercise of this thread should be considered to be dissecting a song rather than fixing it to be in any specific rAgam, which i thought was a good attitude towards (interpretation of) this thread.)
  
  (2) do all rAgams have a character/bhAvam/emotion/... ? for ex., i can't really figure out the purpose of hamsadhwani. any thoughts?
  
  
• From: Sindhuja (@ 203.200.1.124) on: Thu Aug 1 21:17:06 EDT 2002
  
  IR,nAn Ram-kku C-P pannadaye marubadiyum yezhudittengaLe?What I was asking is,is there any OTHER rule than this,to fix the janyam.Coz,the eg. Ram gave(abt. hindOLam)does not obey the tule u've given.So,the question actually was,no. of the mELam thavira vera yEdAvadu criterion uNdA?
  Well.....dunno if u'r going to answer this queston here or not.....But IMHO,u needn't really be so reluctant,coz not eveybody here is a long-timer,and digging into the OR...ayyooo!(anda kashtam yenakku daan theriyum)
  or,if u don't want to post it here,and if u remember the time(atleast vaguely)when this discussion was going on,pl. tell us,so that we can start digging ourselves! :-)
  
  
• From: Sindhuja (@ 203.200.1.124) on: Thu Aug 1 21:18:33 EDT 2002
  
  typo-"tule"=rule
  
  
• From: Ram (@ ) on: Thu Aug 1 22:32:04 EDT 2002
  
  Sindhuja
  >>>>>Some ragas are placed under different mela ragas based on the gamakams, prayogams, rasam of the janya raga<<<<<<<<
  THis line from IR's posting clearly states the criterions other than Melkartha number.
  
  
• From: Sindhuja (@ 203.200.5.164) on: Fri Aug 2 04:46:25 EDT 2002
  
  oh,alright.tnx..(guess I didn't notice...)
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.64.198.150) on: Fri Aug 2 07:01:16 EDT 2002
  
  aruL: To answer your questions:
  
  1) yes when the raga itself is not clear MS spoke about using the "bhavam" factor.
  
  The second part of the same question - about IR's songs - very true - I was amazed at how he used a raga like Lalitha - which is supposed to be a Bhakthi rasa raga - for a love duet!!!! - Idazhil Kadhai Ezhudum
  
  I am not sure about Rageshri/ravichandrika - adhu enna conversation/context la post paNNIneenga - I missed it sorry :-)
  
  2) Yes all/most ragas are supposed to have a "built-in" rasa. And Hamsadwani would qualify under a "veera", "cheerful", "singing aloud" kind of a raga - in contrast to say a mukhari or bhairavi... In other words, it may be difficult to compose a soga song in hamsadhwani. But I agree - IR is the master of breaking these preset bhavas!!
  
  SIndhu: adhaan main rule and other rules sollittene :-) Andholika also falls under the "prayogam" rule nnum sollittene :-) Strictly speaking, karaharapriya should be the parent :-) Infact there is only one rule - michcha ellam avanga avanga convenience kku erpaduththinadhu/individual interpretations :-)
  
  
• From: Sindhuja (@ 203.197.176.62) on: Fri Aug 2 07:34:41 EDT 2002
  
  IR,romba tnx. :-)
  Won't go into this again.jorry....
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.64.198.150) on: Fri Aug 2 07:39:25 EDT 2002
  
  Not a problem - why jorrying??? Sindhu - no concert today??
  
  
• From: vel (@ 202.88.152.159) on: Fri Aug 2 09:55:35 EDT 2002
  
  May be we have more such surprising songs (like the Lalitha eg where the bhava has been contradicted). Pavani - such a stiff scale and it was used for entranced love duet in film Guna - "Paartha Vizhi". Gambheera Naatai - called 'udha raagam' or raga for war-like atmosphere. It has been used in 'innum ennai enna seiyya pogiraai' (film: Singaravelan)Lathangi - No one wud have imagined that it can be used for a gana type song. Carnatic lovers might flinch at this song, but to common-man listener, a two-in-one gift.
  Shankarabharanam - the raga with 'western' flavour was used in a rustic folk song by IR in the film Thooral ninnu pochu ('yerikarai poongaatre)
  
  Interesting :-)
  
  
• From: vel (@ 202.88.152.159) on: Fri Aug 2 10:02:14 EDT 2002
  
  subapanthuvarali - pathos raga - used in duet 'aayiram thamarai mottukale'
  
  Bhavapriya - just differs a fraction from above said raga - but used for a kindal nakkal song -"Kandupudichen, kandupudichen" in film guru sishyan.
  
  
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.64.198.150) on: Fri Aug 2 10:16:33 EDT 2002
  
  vel - excellent post!! superb examples!
  
  
• From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50) on: Fri Aug 2 10:27:39 EDT 2002
  
  To add one more to aruLaracan's questions:
  
  1. can two ragas have the same swaras and differ by the gamakams and/or bhavam?
  2. Isn't Bhaavam/emotion of a raga a subjective thing? Or is a raga DEFINED that way? For example, consider a soga song sung with the notes of subabanthuvarali. Does this sogam (and the notes) define subabanthuvarali? Extending this, is a happy song sung with the notes of subabanthuvarali set in a different, happier raga? romba kozhappareno? IR said "Yes all/most ragas are supposed to have a "built-in" rasa.". What I mean is, is it the other way round? Does this built-in rasa define the raga?
  
  3. Do the swaras themselves convey the bhava? Does an ascension/descension with some set of ragas inherently give rise to an emotion?
  
  I'm not really able to fathom the purported genius of Raaja being able to change the bhavam. It is too abstract for me to appreciate. Doesn't the lyrics and the way it is sung have a lot to do with emotions?
  
  kelvigalai nagesh range-la naane kettutten. Sivaji range-la bathil vandha sandhosham.
  
  
• From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50) on: Fri Aug 2 10:29:09 EDT 2002
  
  typo : Does an ascension/descension with some set of SWARAS inherently give rise to an emotion?
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.64.198.150) on: Fri Aug 2 12:24:54 EDT 2002
  
  
  
  1. can two ragas have the same swaras and differ by the gamakams and/or bhavam?
  
  Bhavam, as you rightly pointed out, is a little subjective.
  hmmm... I would say 2 ragas cannot have the same aarohanam and avarohanam and differ only by their gamakams/bhavam. But they could have the same notes, one could have it in the aarohanam and another could have a given note in the avarohanam or one could take a vakra scale.
  
  2. Isn't Bhaavam/emotion of a raga a subjective thing? Or is a raga DEFINED that way? For example, consider a soga song sung with the notes of subabanthuvarali. Does this sogam (and the notes) define subabanthuvarali? Extending this, is a happy song sung with the notes of subabanthuvarali set in a different, happier raga? romba kozhappareno? IR said "Yes all/most ragas are supposed to have a "built-in" rasa.". What I mean is, is it the other way round? Does this built-in rasa define the raga? 3. Do the swaras themselves convey the bhava? Does an ascension/descension with some set of ragas inherently give rise to an emotion?
  
  Sogam does not define ShubapanthuvarALi - but if you put the notes in this raga together and play a simple tune, that would be the bhava it would bring out. The combination of a set of notes - would usually give a similar feel/bhava. For example, malayamaarutham, valaj, rasikaranjani all have similar feel and take similar notes and are offshoots of the same parent (another example: Abhohi, Sriranjani, Bhageshri, Jayamanohari, Shivashakthi etc).
  
  I dont think ragas with similar set of notes could have totally contradicting bhavas unless they take foreign notes or have a very different aarohanam/avarohanam. One could - for example - say bring out a playful mood while another could bring out a bhakthi rasa - Vasantha vs Sowrashtram - contradicting bhavas like cheer and pathos would need a more drastic change in the notes one of the raga takes. A good example for a raga with a vakra scale would be ShankarabharaNam vs KathanakuthuhaLam. The later has kuthuhaLam in its name itself and am not sure if there are film songs in this raga in a mood other than this. Whereas ShankarAbharaNam could be used in a couple of different situations.
  
  A change in single note could often bring a dramatic difference in bhava - for example mohanam vs vaasanthi and Lalitha vs Vasantha! I am not sure if I am answering your questions! These are just my thoughts - I may be wrong!
  
  
  "I'm not really able to fathom the purported genius of Raaja being able to change the bhavam. It is too abstract for me to appreciate. Doesn't the lyrics and the way it is sung have a lot to do with emotions? "
  
  Yes everything put together could alter the feel of a song - which is what MD's have tried to achieve. inga thaan vel helped me . I am very bad at quoting film song examples... mannchukkonga. MS, Ram, vijay, vel and others are really good at that and our new entrant Sundhar could help us with some old songs and illustrate examples of if/how a pathos raga has been used for a happy/playful song.
  
  aaha - super a kozhappiyaachchu :-) :-)
  
  
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.64.198.150) on: Fri Aug 2 12:28:50 EDT 2002
  
  Oh - forgot to mention - indha bhavam/feel ellam define carnatic compositions - it is very rare to find a composer using a pathos raga to compose a "happy" song in CM. But most carnatic songs are based on the "Bhakthi" bhavam or nayaka/nayaki (God/Devotee) or sogam/complaining to God etc. It is very interesting to see how film MD's have taken these raga definitions (?!) to new heights!
  
  

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