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Musical Merits &Demerits of IR and ARR [Only for fans, not fanatics!]

Topic started by V (@ 147.129.99.180) on Thu Jul 17 16:26:37 EDT 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

To bring our healthy/unhealthy discussion on music merits and demeits of IRR and ARR out of the Thangar Bacchaan thread I starting this thread so that it would be more appropriate.

I expect people who post here to be fans and not typical fanatics. Expecially the young ARR fans and the "Theevira" Raja fans

Thanks!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: 123 u go free (@ 219.65.108.248) on: Sat Jul 19 10:45:16 EDT 2003
  
  if that was meant to be an insult...i'd like to twist it a little please.
  IR makes mistakes too.
  ARR reinvents himself and Music in general to suit the nedd of the changing times.
  
  
• From: V (@ 141.149.235.21) on: Sat Jul 19 15:24:28 EDT 2003
  
  rajasaranam
  
  great that you looked up at the dictionary!
  
  Now take an example of sexual discussions. In magazins and journals popular sexologist doctors talk about sex, safe sex, sexual drive. They use very mature words when describing the emotions, organs, acts etc becase they have to use a polished parlance when they are writing professionally.
  
  The same info they give can be conveyed by using mere words that we use in or own language. But it would sound so bad and vulgar that they resort to use different parlance.
  
  This is the same as I sa. passion or even eroticism can be conveyed by pure music and one does not have to resort to cheap means like orgasms to convey those.
  
  I even now deny that thee thee is not erotic! Because I am fraid the term "erotic' has a very strong connotation slanted towards sex. On the other hand passion could have a different and subtler connotation than eroticism. Let me post what the dictionary says!
  
  Passion
  ========
  
  
  A powerful emotion, such as love, joy, hatred, or anger.
  
  1. Ardent love.
  2. Strong sexual desire; lust.
  3. The object of such love or desire.
  
  So you can clearly see it is not mere sexual desire but a strong urge to make love too!
  
  You have made up your mind to defend Orgasm sounds as non-vulgar! Ofcourse these sounds come naturally to some but it does not mean one should incorporate that in his music.
  
  When you want to talk about someone's "buttocks" you can use the word "buttocks" instead of some vulgar word like "ass" or its tamil equivalent!
  
  But they both mean the same. However one is too straightforward and colloquial right?
  
  Same is true with my reference to "passion" and your reference to "erotica"
  
  
  
  
• From: V (@ 141.149.235.21) on: Sat Jul 19 15:25:55 EDT 2003
  
  MusicIsLife
  
  I cannot agree with you more on the expectaion theory!
  
  Very True!
  
  
• From: V (@ 141.149.235.21) on: Sat Jul 19 15:27:21 EDT 2003
  
  rajasaranam
  
  dont take things too seriously man!
  
  this is a forum so let us be open-minded
  
  
• From: rajasaranam (@ 210.214.132.225) on: Sat Jul 19 15:36:05 EDT 2003
  
  V,
  wats going on?????
  
  
• From: V (@ 141.149.235.21) on: Sat Jul 19 15:38:28 EDT 2003
  
  Can I add that another demerit of ARR is advancing his music with too much experimentation and over-programming!
  
  Maybe he should rest the guys like Pravin Mani who mess with his song!
  
  
• From: Karo (@ 128.148.68.110) on: Sat Jul 19 17:05:04 EDT 2003
  
  Karo
  
  IR is a vegetarian
  
  ARR eats monkey curry
  
  
• From: MusicIsLife (@ 67.85.193.232) on: Sat Jul 19 19:58:55 EDT 2003
  
  V
  You dont agree with more expectation Theory or you do
  
  By the way, i am listening to Led Zeppelin, thought how they play the music, the passion, the love and the devotion..
  
  IR and ARR probably do that to their music, IR does not wait long to deliver it, ARR for some reason wants more time to experiment and probably perfect it!!
  
  
• From: Sreeni (@ 203.56.247.103) on: Sat Jul 19 21:35:24 EDT 2003
  
  To Rajasaranam,
  "its true that i go very deep into my theories."
  
  Yes, but fleeing for refuge into deep theories is clearly compromised from the start if all you're looking for is reinforcement of your a priori convictions.
  
  
  "1.history - a subject frm which we can trace back the forms of music and its evolution over time...."
  
  All very well in its musicological place, but what I'd be interested to know is can we resolve this discussion, or at least refine it, dialectically rather than theoretically?
  
  "4. politics - its influence / wat r the politics behind IR being rejected by mass media while ARR is being Projected great "
  
  For the same reasons that IR was "projected great" during his reign at the top. Because the media reflects the public's hunger for celebrities and success, for vicarious lows and highs, for high stakes and harrowing victories. The flip side, that you neglect to mention, is that the media dwells equally obsessively on ARR's failures but ignores the many flops of VS, IR and YSR.
  
  "STOP TALKING AND ENQUIRE WITHIN MYSELF".
  
  Always a good idea. The enquiry might reveal the extent to which your championship of a particular music director is an intellectually suspect idolization of the man, rather than a legitimate admiration of his most vital music made within a certain time-period. It might reveal that the way in which your nostalgia creates resistance to the new is nothing but the process of growing old, of aging. The enquiry might also reveal that your worship of the man is nothing but self-love masked, love for your younger self that has now passed.
  
  
• From: MADDY (@ 203.94.234.66) on: Sat Jul 19 23:03:26 EDT 2003
  
  ARR:
  Merit: Great Foresight and open to mend rules..
  Demerit: Too much experimentation with Sounds and very complex tunes...
  
  IR:
  Merit: Music happens with IR and not created...
  Demerit: Very rigid thinking, monotonous, wrongly estimating the competitors......
  y not we start a dicussion on comparing IR and MSV-TKR....... cos i feel IR and ARR are of diff. breed and they cannot be compared....
  
  
• From: MusicIsLife (@ 67.85.193.232) on: Sun Jul 20 01:06:03 EDT 2003
  
  Gr!!
  IR and ARR are of diff breed!! nice trick!! I thought they are MD's yeah they cannot be compared as the Former being a true Composer, and Latter trying to be one ( will take a very long time)
  
  
• From: V (@ 141.149.235.21) on: Sun Jul 20 01:13:08 EDT 2003
  
  Good reply Sreeni.
  
  rajasaranam your posts are getting very deep and deep and obviosuly away from the main point so I am not sure if I should have replied to your history, economics, politics etc etc post.
  
  But srini did!
  
  Thanks Sreeni
  
  
• From: V (@ 141.149.235.21) on: Sun Jul 20 01:14:29 EDT 2003
  
  According to me
  
  ARR is more than just a composer! He has made his own rules and has broken conventions all through his career.
  
  I dont think he should be strictly viewed as a "composer" because it is such a restrictive term not befitting ARR's international image!
  
  
• From: Sreeni (@ 203.56.247.155) on: Sun Jul 20 04:34:42 EDT 2003
  
  More for Rajasaranam,
  
  "2.economics - how economy influence music/ a question like why IR is popular among poor/rural and why ARR is popular among rich/urban."
  
  Please don't insult our intelligence. It might suit your ends to create a false dichotomy between ARR/IR and rich/poor, but everyone loved "Kizhakku Cheemayile" just as everyone loved "Idhayathe Thirudathe".
  
  
  "3.geography - wats the influence of geographical location on music / a question like why does some geographical location gives rise to a specific kind of instrument or a style "
  
  Musical anthropology aside, ARR and IR use the instruments/styles called upon by the subject, characters or directorial decision. If you're implying that they're doing so incorrectly, you might want to speak with the directors in question.
  
  "5. sociology - wat kind of musics r liked by various social classes / why gaana songs r popular in slums in and around chennai"
  
  How you hasten to stereotype and simplify! All classes listen to all types of songs. Are you saying that the upper classes walk out of theaters when "gaana" songs are playing? Some impatient souls might trot out for smokes during the slower songs but the fault is likely to be the director's for failing to sustain narrative tension; in any case, the majority stay put.
  
  "7.philosophy - philosophical thougts and the various music forms /why does a communists music sound different frm a cpitalists"
  
  Huh?! This flight of fancy is far too absurd even to deserve comment. I have yet to see capitalists and communists arguing about music.
  
  And while you are at it, why not throw in cognitivist epistemology, neurophysiology, acoustics, paleontology and so on if you're looking for outlandish disciplines to shed light on the IR-ARR debate? Also the craft of pottery-making in Salem and its influence on the cassette-buying choices of the local populace? Also perhaps the effect of Chennai's water problem on the musical tastes of pregnant females in the city?!
  
  My point is that a true understanding of even a grain of sand requires an explanation of the entire universe. But a provisional understanding is good enough if all you want to do is use the sand to mix concrete and build a roof over your head.
  
  And please, I beseech you, don't mangle the English language. I feel physical pain reading some of the prose employed here.
  
  I don't see how anyone can be expected to be taken seriously if his/her language comes across as incomprehensible and illiterate, especially in a community of disembodied strangers without access to each other's facial expressions.
  
  How can we spend hours demanding quality from our composers when we won't take the trouble to compose a decent sentence? Reading a 5th-standard grammar textbook is all that is required. Surely that is not an insurmountable task? Believe me, the benefits are life(and career)-changing.
  
  
• From: MADDY (@ 203.94.233.50) on: Sun Jul 20 05:39:01 EDT 2003
  
  Music is life
  u say ARR is not a composer rite??... then it becomes a matter of shame that ur IR has recorded low sales and got less awards than a Non-Musician ...... wonder what wud have happened to IR if a true musician had come in place of ARR.. probably wud have packed the bags and gone back to Tirunelveli......
  
  
• From: MusicIsLife (@ 67.85.193.232) on: Sun Jul 20 09:23:55 EDT 2003
  
  Maddy!!
  Ur posts are becoming too personal.. and u take things to heart very quickly, See V's reply that is the kind I like.
  
  I dont care who packs the bag and goes where, it is the different kinds of dedication people do to their Music. IR style of music making is different from ARR. Another thing my PUN on the word different breed!! Got it..
  
  He is not my IR, or my ARR, dont be just very adamant!!, IR is for a lot of people THE HUMAN BEING and as ARR is. It is how we show respect..
  
  V: I cannot understand your point, How should i view ARR? For ex: I guess that IR is a disciplinarian in the Music Constructs, probably he believes and follows a methodlogical way of composing Music.. I think you are probably trying to say ARR is trying to break some methodology and fuse some to suit the current trend ( or make a trend which could be liked for a long time). I can agree to that but still dont you think you have to be a composer something as a raw material and then build up on top of that, i.e add your style, and whatever you might call.
  
  I think i should have written IR COMPOSITIONS are very NATURAL, though there were many experimentations he did, HE kind-a fused with our base of Music than take our World Music as base (International Music) and fused our music into it. ARR is just the other way around, i think.
  I might be wrong, you can explain that to me and that is probably the reason it takes a long time.
  
  ARR Merits: Exposure to International projects.
  
  IR Merits: Sticking to Local Taste and delivering music that is of the land (call it folk, dhandanaka whatever), and becoming important in the entertainment business.
  
  IR Demerits: Sticking to the Local Taste/becoming important!!
  
  DAMN IF I DO, DAMN IF I DONT.
  
  
  Sorry Maddy i apologize for saying this, but this is true.
  
  
  ARR DeMerits: Insensible people like Maddy who cannot understand neutral music lovers opinions..
  
  
  
• From: MusicIsLife (@ 67.85.193.232) on: Sun Jul 20 09:26:07 EDT 2003
  
  V
  Another thing: International Image Music Composing abilities. ( I think u might correct me)
  Like somebody wrote CD sales are higher so ARR is a class act, which is hurtful coz, I think Media format should not determine what is good Music.
  
  I still like Led zep and Phil Collins in my LP Records than CD.. Strange but true..
  
  

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