Topic started by Prabhar (@ ppp45-216.lvsb.vsnl.net.in) on Thu Jul 2 09:40:00 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
Yes......The greatest joke of the year!
Courtesy: Sivaji Ganesan
Reference: Kungumam weekly.
My opeinon: KD malai yentral VM madu....
Responses:
- Old responses
- From: Kanchana (@ ww-wa01.proxy.aol.com)
on: Sun Jul 5 22:45:20 EDT 1998
Keerthi:
As you and the other veteran DFers know, I'm an ardent kaNNadhAsan fan and a passionate student of sangakAlath thamizh ilakkiyam. I'm still not done raving about aththikkAi kAi kAi, pArththEn siriththEn, satti suttadhadA and numerous other classics by Kaviyarasar. Can I be a truly objective moderator here? :-)
A non-judgmental observation--VM does not have (m)any fans in DF due to poetic and/or political reasons, and, deservedly or not, is a total underdog here. And, unless we have some participants to analyze his lyrics without getting mired in moral superiority judgments of him as a person (as is often the case), we cannot have a healthy discussion on this topic.
Tho a card-carrying kaNNadhAsan fan, I can pitch in some for VM too, but it's going to take more than one person to represent two decades of TFM lyrics by VM. Let's wait and see if there is anyone here who can help build a decent case for VM too, before we kick off any serious discussion. neenga enna ninaikkareenga? As you've said, the last thing we need here is yet another knee-jerk emotional and non-analytical, "let's set up VM as the strawman and bash him up" thread. Been there, done that, only too often! :-)
Srikanth:
nilavu oru peNNAgi is by vAli.
As a kaNNadhAsan fan, I've delved into his non-TFM works too. My personal assessment: some works like sugamAna sindhanaigaL and some poetry are good, but some like arththamuLLa indhu madham were philosophically shallow and unsound, especially given my high expectations from kaviyarasar. Sorry for this non-TFM digression.
- From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg)
on: Sun Jul 5 23:12:22 EDT 1998
Kanchana:
I agree. We need a energetic moderator and also
a couple of forumers who have a good appreciation
of VM's contributions to TFM. Let us wait and see
if others respond.
aruLarasan, Pagalavan, Ramki and others...
this is the second call for kicking-off a healthy
debate to compare VM and Kannadhasan; are you
interested?
Udhaya:
Knowing your TFM knowledge, energy, interest and objectivity,
I ask this: can you volunteer to be the moderator?
Can you also help to give a kick-off?
- From: Udhaya (@ host16.globalcenter.net)
on: Sun Jul 5 23:51:57 EDT 1998
SK, how about making this a kavidhai symposium where we all throw in our favorites of both under specific categories, this way the competitive edge will be out of the way, since in a debate format,even if I know good poems by one poet I may not be volunteering it because it will weaken my case against him. Why don't we all prove to ourselves that we don't need to take sides with a poet and only take sides with good poetry? I can come up with enough examples for both poets and I'm sure many others can too. Let's consider this a tiny saevai for TFM lyrics. I will gladly set forth the categories that we can judge the two poets by and we can all go to work. If anything I hope this exercise will make one diehard fan of Kannadhaasan appreciate VM and vice versa. If this works, we can move on to IR and ARR, okay, now I know I'm dreaming.
Here are the categories to judge both poets by giving examples of lyrics they wrote for TFM:
1)Iyarkai Varnanai
2)Kaadhal Paadalgal
3)Thaththuva Paadalgal
4)Vaarthai Prayoagam
5)Nagaichchuvai Paadalgal
6)Samudhaaya Seerthirutha Puratchi Paadalgal
7)Vingyaana/Naveena Karuthoottum Paadalgal
8)Ilakkiya Moolam Ulla Paadalgal
9)Kadhaikku Porundhiya Paadalgal(situational songs)
Anything else you guys would like to add or refine in my list above, please do so, once we settle on a judging criteria, we can begin our symposium.
- From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ synergy.nus.edu.sg)
on: Mon Jul 6 02:06:42 EDT 1998
Udhaya:
Thanks. I agree with you about the 'kavidhai symposium'.
You are very much on the right track. The topics
that you have listed look great. So, can you
lead us on by selecting a topic and giving an
intro?
- From: K.Ramalingam (@ 202.54.43.182)
on: Mon Jul 6 02:09:54 EDT 1998
Balaji:
Your words are 100% correct.
VM is a pakka oppurtunist.
He writes like anything for money.Atleast he should agree tha like "Valli".
His songs in Indian(telephone mani.....) and
Jeans are too bad.
His only aim is to satisfy AR.Rahman and getting
continues chance in the field.
Just ommit this comparison because i don't want to defame KD.
- From: Pagalavan (@ bbn-cache-3.cisco.com)
on: Mon Jul 6 13:21:54 EDT 1998
Sathiya Keerthi
Thanks for the call. I agree with your view about the need for objective comparison. As nicely listed by Udhaya, let us take the categories one by one and analyse. I will certainly participate and provide inputs to this discussion.
- From: Prakash Balakrishnan (@ gate5.ca.us.ibm.com)
on: Mon Jul 6 13:43:47 EDT 1998
Sathya Keerthi Sir,
Vaira Muthuvaiyum, KaNNadhasaniyum oppidathan vENduma?? kaNNadhasan 8vadhu varai mattumE padithavar, Vaira Muthuvo illakiyathil Masters alladhu Phd pattam pettravar.
indha periya vErupadai vaiththu iruvaraiyum eadai podum podhu, KaNNadhasanE melongi irukkirar. Padalasiriyar enbdhu thavira avar Kadhai, Kavidhai, Mozhi peyarpugaL endru pala vishyangaL ezhuthi irukkirar. Kadhai ezhuthuvathil avar thOlvi adaithirukkalam. ella vagaiyilum avar sirapidam petrirukkirar. Udhaya sonnadhu pola oru thalaippai eduththuk kONdu iru kavingargaLaiyum aarayalaam.
aanaal Vigyana/Naveena padalgaLai aaraaya mudiyadhu... En endral Cell Phone, Fax, TV pondra vishyagaL KaNNadhasanin kaalathil illai. idhaiyum meeri kaNNadhasan vigyana padalgaL ezhuthi irundhal adhai aaraayalaam.
perumpaalaana KaNNadhasan padalgaL kadhaiyod oththu pOnavai. PoruLudan kudiya pala paadalgaaLai Kaviyarasar ezhuthi irukkirar.
enavE, kathaiyudan oththu pona padaLgaLai mudhalil aarayalamE??
MakkaLE, thayavu saidhu idhil IR Vs ARR idhil izhukkatheergaL. KaNNadhasan vs VM-ai mattum avargaL padalgaLai mattum vimarsanam saiyungaL.
- From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217)
on: Mon Jul 6 13:55:39 EDT 1998
Prakash, just moments ago I started the first topic of discussion about VM and Kannadhaasan. I led off with Iyarkai Varnanai since it was first on my topic list. But we don't have to go in order. I wouldn't mind simultaneous topic postings, but we should all agreee to keep the numbers of threads about the symposium to a minimum so as to not monopolize the Discussion Forum. Let me know how to do this, guys. If we keep all the discussions in one thread, it will be so hard to navigate the flow of discussion so we have to have a separate thread for each topic used to judge VM and Kannadhaasan.
Regarding Vingyaana paadalgal, Prakash, Kannadhaasan has written some songs in that respect, "Vandha Naal Mudhal", so don't worry, there are enough songs for both poets on all topics. Whether one overpowers the other in a certain topic is entirely dependant on how much of their songs we uncover.
- From: Prakash Balakrishnan (@ gate3.ca.us.ibm.com)
on: Mon Jul 6 14:08:51 EDT 1998
Udhaya,
I saw the post and started giving my views..
BTW don't go with simultaneous topic postings. We will discuss one topic at a time. If we come to some conclusion then Notify at the end of the post that "The Topic is over... we continue the main topic in.. ----------".. where '-----' means title which we are going to discuss.
What do you all think?
- From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217)
on: Mon Jul 6 14:13:43 EDT 1998
Okay, Prakash, I second your idea. It will make things simple and we won't be getting ahead of ourselves.
- From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg)
on: Mon Jul 6 23:06:04 EDT 1998
Pagalavan:
Thanks. I look forward to your contributions.
- From: Radha Sanjay (@ dwarpal.wipsys.soft.net)
on: Mon Jul 13 08:39:56 EDT 1998
I feel there should not be a comparison between the two giants(KD and VM). All that we have to do is to compare their lyrics.
Now, all that i want to know is why so many people are against VM. Always one should appreciate a skilled man. I'm not blaming KD. He's undoubtedly a eternal poet.
But VM has also given so much contribution to tamil movies.
In samudhya seerthirutha padalgal, the song
Manitha,manitha ini un vizhigal thiranthal ulagam pirakkum is enough to tell VM's poetic ability.
When we come Kadhal pagalgal, i have a list of songs which will take pages to explain.
In andhi mazhai pozhigiruthu, the line 'manmatha ambugal thaitha idangalil santhanamai enai poosukiren' is extremely good.
then in the song 'kaadhalin deepam onru', the lines "ennai nan thedi thedi unnidam kandu konden' is enough to tell what a romantic poet he is.
when we come to situational songs, the song 'oorai therinjukitten ulagam ', the line 'en veettu kannukutti ennoda mallukatti en marbil payuthadi kanmani' si enough to tell the whole story.
Vairamuthu's varthai prayogam is excellent in this song 'poovil vandu koodum kandu poovum kangal moodum'
Hope these songs are enough to prove vairamuthus' talents.
If this is not enough i have a good collection of VM's songs which i know it by heart(mostly)
- From: rjay (@ 204.220.167.184)
on: Wed Jul 15 08:14:03 EDT 1998
Uday, Srikanth, Keerthi, Kanchana,
I dont know anything about personal side
of VM and I give him the benefit of doubt ;)
- but I really care so much about KD's personal
side that I feel sad about his shortcomings.
I somehow feel that the personal side of an artist
is inseparable from his art and lends it its credibility. Moreover an artist stands in limelight
and I am oldfashioned in that I feel artists should be a role models - because all of us in our adolescene model ourselves based on the words and thoughts and gestures of these people.
I feel pained to hear Beatles lead a whole culture of teens to experiment drugs and later transcendental meditation!
One reason why IR has so many die-hard fans is people see him as a
strong principled person (inspite of his ego).
Most people value him for what he stands
for - for human ability to rise through struggle, hard work and continuos application
of genius. I also think ARR also has equivalent moral toughness to inspire the next generation.
For all the genius KD had in terms of access to
vocabulary and ability to breath, I should say, in any meter
(read Kunnakkudi's description of how he
came up with Kodi malaigalile kodukkum malai
and recently saw the song - his spontaneous Sippi Irukkudhu and was zapped),
and fluency with ideas, I still feel if he had had personal discipline, given the exposure he got, he could
have revolutionized the lifes of Tamils by showing them direction like Bharathi did
(Wait, Bharathi too had his personal side...
I hear) Instead he was fighting battles against
himself.
One of the greatest things achieved by KD is
his ability to express the desires, longings and emotions of a simple common man straight
from the heart. (Read the good article by Malan in the PPP page)
That may be the first requirement
from a poet, but personally we need more than
that. He should light up hearts and souls and
inspire them to great living. KD wrote songs
that did these, but did not live them out.
I know I am offtrack because I started discussing KD vs KD!
I may be more offtrack when I say Pattukkottai was such an inspired and inspiring
poet - but I write so much because this is
a subject that I feel so strong about and think
is important.
Webmaster, You can retain the mail or please feel free to delete it, I wont be hurt.
Thanks.
- From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217)
on: Wed Jul 15 18:10:06 EDT 1998
rjay,
I view humans as portals for the magic of art. Why and whom art chooses to use as a vehicle seems an arbitrary thing. To me art is amoral, and I have always been a minority in this opinion. But, I applaud your passion and appreciate you opening up here. I hope you will continue to contribute to the DF. We have a symposium going on right now based on this thread. I invite you to join us there.
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