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The INVISIBLE and The UNHEARD - What role can Listeners play in re-establishing QUALITY in TFM?

Topic started by Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63) on Thu Mar 28 10:41:25 EST 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Vanakkam/Namaskar !
This is the first time I am initiating a discussion. In the last year that I have visited this site I have heard many views on the current state of Tamizh and Tamizh Film Music. Moving out of the ARR-IR tugs and pulls, it would be good to hear your comments on the FUTURE of Tamizh/Film Music:
Points to consider:
1. Globalism is a Reality: How has this affected the packaging of TFM?
2. Is blatant imitation of "Western" trends in TF Music a sign of Progress/Evolution?
3. There is a strong sense of discontent among tamizh film music listeners (what I have gleaned from posters here - no definitive survey :-)) with regards to the way Tamizh has been corrupted in the name of "fashion" or "novelty" - Is this trend reversible? Or is this the way of the Future?
4. Masses and Music: The old Chicken and Egg argument: Masses influence the Music/ Music influences the Masses - What is the role of the Tamizh Audience in this? Are criticism and discrenment powerless vis-a-vis the Marketing Machinery?
5. The slow decline in meaning and music - singing/lyrics/refinement - can these be fixed? Or is this undeserving of serious thought/input?
6. How (and where) do you see Tamizh Film Music - five years down the road?

These are some genuine concerns. Please, let us do our best, to make this an engaging discussion. I look foward (no personal blame-games please) your insights and ideas. Do add to the above list of concerns if you find them to be incomplete...

Best to All!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63) on: Thu Mar 28 18:55:14 EST 2002
  
  s0 - thanks for your post. Write as elaborately as you want :-) It can only lead to a better understanding of the issues at hand.
  
  Subjectivity is a given - from what one wears, to what one considers "refinement," to what one listens to. Subjectivity is a good thing (Excess is quite another thing altogether.)
  
  The issue of influences on music-makers in TFM has always been diverse. From "O O Yendhan Baby" right down (or is it up?) to "Shakalakala Baby." It is how these influences manifest themselves which is of concern to me...R.D. Burman, for example, was quite taken with the whole rock n roll scene and incorporated many strands of it into his film music - Dum Maro Dum - is a good example for how a counter-culture scene was presented within a certain imagined "hippie" context on the indian screen. His songs from Shaan, Sholay, Sagar - are testimony to how foreign influences could be suitably (and admirably) indianised for the junta at large. He showed great restraint even in his borrowing, making sure that it was not just a fad he was chasing; rather a newness built on the foundations of a time tested and trusted structure. Nothing was sacrificed at the altar of commercialism or cool.
  
  If the halloween celebrating lisp imitating adolescent crowd is hooked on Tamizh hip-hop, then so be it. But what about the rest? After all, the bubblegummers are only one sliver of the demographic - Do Tamizhs in their 30s-40s really groove to the same music? Do you know this to be the case?
  
  Trend-following just to fill the coffers also reveals (more and more) a certain moral and artistic bankruptcy....doesn't it?
  
  On homogenisation: If a people don't strive to keep their language and arts distinct, who is really going to do it for them?
  
  I agree that for revolutions to occur, it is not just rage but also reason which must prevail.
  But here's the scary notion that must also be faced unflinchingly: WHAT IF THIS SELLING-OUT IS INDEED THE REVOLUTION? What does one do or say to that? Wake me up when it is over? :-)
  
  
• From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50) on: Thu Mar 28 19:20:22 EST 2002
  
  "If the halloween celebrating lisp imitating adolescent crowd is hooked on Tamizh hip-hop, then so be it."
  
  you cannot ignore them since they are the torch-bearers. the question is will they mellow down and stick to their roots as they grow older? if they don't, what will they impart to their children? tamil is already getting behind english and hindi as choice of first/second language in schools.
  "Are criticism and discrenment powerless vis-a-vis the Marketing Machinery?" & "If a people don't strive to keep their language and arts distinct, who is really going to do it for them? "
  
  how many are upto it? poonaikku yaar mani kattuvadhu? is the majority willing to return to roots?
  
  
• From: sarat (@ 67.34.132.86) on: Thu Mar 28 19:35:56 EST 2002
  
  naaz
  IMO, language should just be treated as a way of communicating between people. As long as that is achieved everything is fine. Most of the present day singers, despite their best efforts, are struggling to do that. And as I said earlier, I am pretty sure in the near future, people are going to realise that they can't understand what the guy is singing, and then things will change.
  
  Other than that, I dont think we should be worried that TFM is not doing its bit in the 'save tamil' campaign.
  Thats what I meant by 'just the language'
  
  
• From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63) on: Thu Mar 28 21:22:07 EST 2002
  
  Never mind saving tamizh in TFM, whatever happened to "savouring" tamizh in TFM?
  
  I admit that Language is a Tool for expression between people. But I also believe that How we Use Language expresses a lot about who we are. Or am I mistaken?
  
  
• From: magix (@ 203.199.248.64) on: Thu Mar 28 21:35:50 EST 2002
  
  naaz,
  do u mind if i fool around in this thread
  or only serious discussions?
  
  
• From: Saketh@Atlanta (@ 66.56.8.71) on: Thu Mar 28 21:56:37 EST 2002
  
  The masses never really understood what MSV, IR and ARR did musically. It is only the musically trained who keep tabs on these things and debate about who is better and who is the best. In that sense, anything new, Western and different will always be welcome to the common man. The musically knowledgeable people want people to understand that the songs that are churned out these days are not of 'superior' taste, of course, in vain. On the other hand, there is the danger of these knowledgeable people becoming too closed to anything new and that is only as bad. Film music, IMHO, will see a revival. This is not wishful thinking but just the law of averages. As our music gets more global attention, things will change for the better, again IMHO. Of course, this revival need not be a return to MSV or IR style of music but something new altogether and may be there will a coexistence of different styles.
  
  On the other hand, speaking and singing in broken/accented tamil is unacceptable. Not many people pay attention to lyrics now and some of lyrics are just so bad that I prefer the singers making it ununderstandable. In that sense, I first want to see sensible lyrics written and of course, it is unjustifiable to spoil good lyrics with bad diction. I think TFM is doing a great disservice to Tamil people by allowing such diction to be practiced.
  
  The important difference in the trends in music and language diction is that music is more universal and there is no doubt that Indian music can hold it own even when the music in TFM gets globalized. However, by anglicizing and accenting Tamil in a very popular forum, we may be driving Tamil out of everyday use. All IMHO...
  
  
• From: Neel D (@ 24.98.41.115) on: Thu Mar 28 21:59:49 EST 2002
  
  Lately I am seeing quality returning to Tamil movies. A big goodbye to the trash from Ajith, Vijay, Prashant, Prabudeva, etc. Gives me hope that quality will return to Tamil film music as well.
  
  
• From: VR (USA) (@ 66.188.201.72) on: Thu Mar 28 22:35:43 EST 2002
  
  Hi all: Terrific thread Naaz.
  
  First of all it would be great if folks posting on this thread mentioned which country they live in now...
  
  
  My guess has been that many of us who now live abroad and who have heard good old TFM are deeply pained by the state of present day TFM. Many in India see this change in TFM as a more as a natural evolution..
  
  I think part of the problem with living abroad and listening to true rock, jazz, hip-hop, blues and the like day in and day out, exposes the amateurish compositions of TFM MD's trying to ape the west. It is pathetic. It think it would be an euphemism to call what these MD's produce as garbage. I also feel that a lot of musci lovers in India who understand rock music recognize as garbage what is being composed today under the garb of TFM.
  
  A common statement Ive heard in these forums is that IR did the same with WCM, and more modern MD's are using more modern western music in their compositions.. I dont buy this. there is world of differnce between merging WCM type peices with typical TFM and what is happening now.
  
  Now there is no "Indianness" in the music. The songs have no purpose. The tune is non-existent and pointless. If you analyze todays TFM, there is no purposeful goal that the melody takes.Rather it is bits and pieces of unrelated "music" screamed at you by people who cannot understand or speak the language..
  
  
  But guess what: It does not matter. Thankfully there is enough of teh old TFM made by KVM, MSV, IR etc around to last my lifetime. So many many melodies that you can listen to. I dont miss not having more new songs. I dont have time to listen and enjoy all the old ones enough.
  
  Plus there is true Western musci of all shapes sizes and forms available to soothe the soul when needed. Why bother with pseudos when u can have the real thing?
  
  More later
  
  
  
• From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63) on: Thu Mar 28 23:13:09 EST 2002
  
  Thanks, VR. I make my home in Canada.
  Regarding the genre options those of us who live outside the geographical boundaries of India is a valid observation, yes, there is a lot to choose from and a lot to keep at a distance. But hasn't the issue of accessibility changed since the REAL Audio revolution hit our computers...no matter what we are?
  While "IndyPOP" in and out of TFM may still provide a quick ethnic high, the REAL thing (as you term it) is also available to someone in Kovai or Kotwal Chavadi with a click of a link or file...illaiya?
  So how come the difference is not immediately discerned and discarded without a second thought?
  
  Neel, I hope with you. What's to lose? Kaal ponal yenna, Muzham ponal yenna...Keep that flame alive. It don't cost much :-)
  
  
• From: VR (@ 66.188.201.72) on: Fri Mar 29 00:43:38 EST 2002
  
  
  Naaz: you make a point...
  
  I think the reason are many for the difference: The level and amount of exposure is between someone in India and someone who has a home in teh west is different: U listen to FM radio on the way to work, you listen to it probably at work, you have concerts, etc...
  
  Second, is the type of western music itself that is widely heard is probably different. Its like Britney versus New Orleans Zydeco...I mean you know the type of music that is popularized in India is MTV pop.
  
  Third: I have no doubt that there is a large enlightened population in India that knows the difference and recognizes the pseudo western TFM. But this group is probably dwarfed by the masses who find it titilating and enjoyable to have a bunch of guys and girls gyrating to heavy bass music.
  
  Its like the BeeGees making an Indian Classical album.
  
  
  Regarding the specific points you make at eh beginning of the therad.
  
  1. Globalism/Commercialism is a reality. it is affecting all types of music. Not just TFM ..And thats sad, cause the same agony is being felt in contemeporary pop music as well.. Well packaged mass musis ruling the airwaves over real music.
  
  2. The blatant imitation of the west is a tragedy. There are good things that TFM can learn from Western music....such as emphasis on sheer perfection in everything, level of talent and excellence of the musicians, recording standards, orchestration, etc...but not selling out our culture and music wholesale..
  
  3. I think the trend is reversible thanks to the Internet. Also sooner or later this music will go stale and old.
  
  4. As is true everywhere: the most popular musis is not the best music ...No, its not emperors new clothes, but honest to God, teen pop music sells more albums than anything else now...and u know how manufactured that is...So the masses do dictate which albums sell and which songs are recorded.. Unfortunately, music in India is dominated by film music, so there arent a thousand other alternative choices like u have here to satisfy what u need.
  
  5. Lyrics are awful..Ive been watching a few tamil movies on DVD recently, and I promise, I havent seen a movie in which the situations wehre the songs come in the movie didnt look awfully artificial . The songs interupt a movie for no reason., So how can there be good lyrics? It seems like songs are interspersed every 15 mins on a formula basis... So whatever is going on the hero and heroine take a break to go with all their friends for some grinding, then the movie continues as if nothing happens.. i am not cynical...i am actually being kind.
  
  6. 5 yrs down the road, depends on a new talent coming in. I dont see anyone in the horizon. Noone in the caliber of IR to shake up things and effect real change, and be refreshing and original. Except if IR himself abandons TFM and goes about creating music for music sake. Heck wouldnt that be wonderful. Even if he just moves here (with SPB, KJY, SJ, and PS if possible) for a while , employs a good philharmonic and re records all his hits.
  
  
  
• From: VR (@ 66.188.201.72) on: Fri Mar 29 01:01:32 EST 2002
  
  
  BTW; I am sorry about the typos....I cant type for nuts. Really apologize
  
  Suresh: re IR using Mano etc instead of SPB: You hit the nail on the head...i love the man IR, but thats one thing i cannot imagine: why ? I think that opened the door for mediocrity in singing to become acceptable..
  
  In western pop and rock etc, the quality of the singers voice is not emphasized..but the reason is different. Most of the folks with terrible voices are the ones who are composing the music as well..Its part of rock and roll..its the whole package..But you dont invite Bob Dylan for his voice quality to sing on an album mass produced by whoever the hell produces the music for N Sync...
  
  

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