Home   Forum   Wiki   Notes   Register   FAQ   Sitemap   About Us   Contact Us  

Ir's limitations

Topic started by krishnan (@ uswgne11.uswest.com) on Wed Jul 8 15:52:59 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I know I am going to get a few bouncers.Let me start off any way & put
on a helmet.If one were to play with numbers, considering all of IR's
4000 plus songs ( atleast the popular ones) one could classify most of
them under 15 main ragas.( eg. mohanam, kalyani etc).I know of countless
songs he has done in mohanam & MMgowla.Well, one has to give dure credit
to him to have composed in nalinakanthi & kambiranattai.And how many
folk in sindhubhairavi.I understand that even a pure classical singer
limits himself to these standard ragas.That does not mean IR has to
tread on the same path ( applying these ragas).Well, has IR done in
umabharanam or dwijavanthi or any of the rare rags that dikshitar has
done.No comparisons here please.This is the challenge that lies ahead of
the future musicians.IR may have started on a western background, &
started to pick up on carnatic later ( with the help of TVG).I would
like to see him do more on some rare ragas.No more
mohanam,kalyani,S.bhairavi please.

---

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: e.hari (@ 199.67.140.20) on: Tue Dec 19 15:03:40 EST 2000
  
  Sorry. The URL Is
  http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~subraman/rmim.html.
  
  Regards
  e.hari
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Dec 19 15:04:05 EST 2000
  
  B.S to the core. But I think that would make the best joke of the year?
  
  
• From: sabesan (@ 63.203.255.254) on: Tue Dec 19 15:33:06 EST 2000
  
  I cannot imagine anyone letting S.Janaki to
  sing.
  
  good joke...... yar venaaa edhu venumnallum sollalam polaaaa.... kali kallaam, what else to say.....
  
  
• From: pg (@ 12.20.190.1) on: Tue Dec 19 15:33:29 EST 2000
  
  Here is the correct link :
  
  http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~subraman/cgi-bin/art.cgi?123
  
  
• From: pg (@ 12.20.190.1) on: Tue Dec 19 15:37:08 EST 2000
  
  "...do a permutation of the notes and lo"
  
  Isn't this what every musician does ?
  
  
• From: doubter (@ 208.142.210.30) on: Tue Dec 19 15:40:57 EST 2000
  
  What does he mean by 'poor in strings'? How does the string section of RDB differ from that of IR? Can anybody explain to this layman in his terms?
  
  
• From: time (@ 64.208.81.180) on: Tue Dec 19 15:59:57 EST 2000
  
  yo... music pro's out there, why dont you guys explain it.
  
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Tue Dec 19 17:33:57 EST 2000
  
  swamiji,
  
  i would like to read your refutation of this article! :-)
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Dec 19 18:10:52 EST 2000
  
  Obviously the guy must have been desperately sought after in that forum and begged to write something that would atleast make people laugh. Well, his mind seems to have learnt no more than 2+2 = 4. If he reduces his logic to a simple permutation and combination, which I think is somewhat similar to "Its all up in the sleeve" to explain away magicians, there would have been 1000 IRS and we would be fighting in this thread between IR 100 and ARR 50. Or the Dosai that I desperately try to make by using various P & Cs would taste better all the time!! Or you would find a chapter in your mathematics textbook called "Permutations and Combinations of Music". Whatever it is, he appears to be a simpleton.
  It is very much true that music is based on a combination of different notes at fixed intervals. They are known as scales, or raagas as we call it. Our auditory senses are tuned to react to certain passages/intervals/raagas in a certain way. Western scales do have names just like the way raagas do. For example they have names like major, minor, melodic minor, aeolian, lydian, diminished whole tone, augmented and many more. They are all 7-noted scales. There are of course 5-toned scales called pentatonic scale (Mohanam is a 5 toned scale). And not the least a twelve toned scale (having all semitones) called chromatic scale. Anyways, my point is, we tend to think western classical is some mysterious music that we dont understand but enjoy nevertheless. And we should NOT explain away everything and crunch it all into single words like "Chords", "Blues" or "Jazz" like the way this guy has done. There is a lot of theory behind understanding music be it WCM or Indian. And our GEM ILAYARAJA has shown us the beauty of WCM in our own language. NO it is not his chords that make him great, NO its not his strings that make him great...it is purely his genius in creating high quality innovative MUSIC(of course he is well versed in the theory of music). I dont understand Volcanos, but it is wrong to think lord Rama is angry and throwing fire from inside a mountain.
  RDB is one of my favorites of course. He brought so many cool stuff into film music. He made the crowd sit and listen just like the way ARR is doing now. But IR has shown us things which no ordinary soul can show us. IR himself might say "music is just a P & C", but he is doing so only becoz he cannot teach things he knows to everyone on this earth. He just wants to make us feel good. All great people do the same.
  If someone has some time, please advise this guy to go outside nursery school and play. He simply wasted my time.
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Tue Dec 19 19:04:21 EST 2000
  
  there are some technical flaws in his article as well as glaring omissions. if naushad was the king of hfm, gr was the king of tfm in the early days. imho, not even naushad is so good as gr (g.rAmanAthan). greats like c.ramachandra, ghantasala were missed out. tms sang offkey and ps sang bad?!? this man is in serious comedy business :-))
  
  i have few serious questions: (1) do composers really compose songs after choosing the chord progressions; i have heard/read that the melody is composed first and then harmony written afterward (ir does only this, afaik). (2) do people with some pretension of taste for classical music like old hindi film songs more than old/new tamil film songs? (3) has ir composed songs where there are tempo changes? i am not asking about songs where the prelude/intro is in one tempo and the rest of the song in another; i would like to know if there are "real" tempo changes "in" a song.
  
  
• From: bb (@ 216.217.80.201) on: Tue Dec 19 19:14:06 EST 2000
  
  aruL, avar sollaradhu correct thaan.. TMS is bad, PS is bad, but the "great" Mukesh is only "technically bad" :-))))))
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Tue Dec 19 19:39:08 EST 2000
  
  bb,
  
  for a few seconds you got me there! :-))))
  
  
• From: bb (@ 216.217.80.201) on: Tue Dec 19 19:40:37 EST 2000
  
  hee hee (or should i say hi hi?):))
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.23.185) on: Tue Dec 19 20:09:42 EST 2000
  
  suththa pEththal. These guys should not be taught English. Once they are taught English, exposed to music and know how to type in Notepad, they create text files with weirdest content.
  
  If it had been in paper form, it would have gone to masala kadalai.
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (not heehee:-) [:-)]) (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Tue Dec 19 20:23:16 EST 2000
  
  bb, :-))
  
  the greatest joke is "raaja is very weak in string section"!! im(not so)ho, raaja is one (in india) who really knows how to use the various "parts" of the string section. it's a pleasure to hear flowing melodies in the strings starting with the first violins and flowing all the way down to contrabass. the transitions are difficult to discern but real pleasures. i was listening to "nAn vAkkappattup pOgappORa Urappaththi kELu" of ?!?! what a song. let this man listen to the string sections as chiththra sings the charaNam and then talk. (remember bAlayyA in thiruviLaiyAdal saying "evanum vAyath thoRandhu pAdakkUdAdhu? :-)) )
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Dec 19 20:31:18 EST 2000
  
  Arul, answers to your Qs in my capacity
  (1) do composers really compose songs after choosing the chord progressions; i have heard/read that the melody is composed first and then harmony written afterward (ir does only this, afaik).
  There no end to how you can compose music. you can base your motive (or the main theme) of the song based on a chord progression, and then alter melodies to your taste. Example - James bond theme music and plenty more.
  (2) do people with some pretension of taste for classical music like old hindi film songs more than old/new tamil film songs?
  Dunno. Atleast I don't belong to that crowd.
  (3) has ir composed songs where there are tempo changes? i am not asking about songs where the prelude/intro is in one tempo and the rest of the song in another; i would like to know if there are "real" tempo changes "in" a song.
  Dil bar jaane Dil deewane ... in the end.
  
  
• From: fan (@ 63.225.174.125) on: Wed Dec 20 00:08:25 EST 2000
  
  there was question in WW2BAM...if i could remember right,
  what do you call a person who has bad ears for harmony and arrangement
  
  Ans: Tin Ear.
  Our friend does not even have tin ears.
  
  Arulji...on temp changes.
  3) rumbambam arabam ending, en jodi majakurvi, santhu potu (along with the tempo meter changes)
  Rakkamma kaiyathatu...the female chours slows down in tempo and come back to regular.
  
  
  
  
• From: e.hari (@ 199.67.138.20) on: Wed Dec 20 10:17:27 EST 2000
  
  I am also surprised about the author's generosity in not saying any negative remarks about SDB, or S-J.
  I felt sad this is the only article in RMIM archieves dealing with IR apart from the front line article, which is known for all.
  Guys, is it possible to post a article in RMIM, a extract of some of the technical discussions, we had on IR. Since RMIM ( atleast some time back), was the good source for indian film music as well,
  may be it is useful for people looking over there to find out how much IR music is technically sophisicated.
  
  thanks
  e.hari
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed Dec 20 10:57:12 EST 2000
  
  It is not right for me to talk when really technical people are discussing stuff.But I cant resist saying this -
  This Narasimhan guy may be correct about the permutation/combination thing about a rAgam+tabla bOl. Only caveat is, only IR can do it :) anyother MD would love to have this skill.
  The string section comment is laughable. We were touring the Ireland country side with a kannadiga friends. He was playing a cassette full of rAjkumar songs. For a person who could not tell C from B or whatever I could pick out just the two IR songs, purely based on the strings and polyphonic melodies. I am not sure about chords comment because I have heard professional musicians say the chords in IRs songs are too damn difficult. I think IR fused the WCM into the songs so much it does not stand out whereas others could not but claimed the output as more western/modern sounding.
  
  
• From: Naveen (@ 204.255.14.188) on: Wed Dec 20 11:17:53 EST 2000
  
  hope it is not V.S Narasimhan
  
  Naveen
  
  

---

List all pages of this thread

Post comments