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Ir's limitations

Topic started by krishnan (@ uswgne11.uswest.com) on Wed Jul 8 15:52:59 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I know I am going to get a few bouncers.Let me start off any way & put
on a helmet.If one were to play with numbers, considering all of IR's
4000 plus songs ( atleast the popular ones) one could classify most of
them under 15 main ragas.( eg. mohanam, kalyani etc).I know of countless
songs he has done in mohanam & MMgowla.Well, one has to give dure credit
to him to have composed in nalinakanthi & kambiranattai.And how many
folk in sindhubhairavi.I understand that even a pure classical singer
limits himself to these standard ragas.That does not mean IR has to
tread on the same path ( applying these ragas).Well, has IR done in
umabharanam or dwijavanthi or any of the rare rags that dikshitar has
done.No comparisons here please.This is the challenge that lies ahead of
the future musicians.IR may have started on a western background, &
started to pick up on carnatic later ( with the help of TVG).I would
like to see him do more on some rare ragas.No more
mohanam,kalyani,S.bhairavi please.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.26.235) on: Wed Apr 12 01:20:48 EDT 2000
  
  S :
  
  I am not talking about nizalgaL and later. annakkiLi kaalaththukku pakkaththula.
  
  
• From: S (@ netcache31.mot.com) on: Wed Apr 12 01:24:56 EDT 2000
  
  Oh...that clarifies. (tho even here i wish to differ. remember oru nAL unnOdu oru nAL from uRavAdum nenjam's second interlude ??? I'm talking about the "violin-burst":-) )
  
  
• From: S (@ netcache31.mot.com) on: Wed Apr 12 01:27:25 EDT 2000
  
  and let me make one more point.....by "annakkiLi kAlam" u mean the first 3 Yrs of Raja , right ??
  
  I thot arr entered FM in 92....and 2K is his 8'th yr in FM.....so...
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.26.235) on: Wed Apr 12 01:31:58 EDT 2000
  
  S :-)
  
  oru naal was the example I was about to give :-) anyway, closing it here..with an end note:
  
  ARRi sprobably a slow learner,so what ? :-)
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ sttl6400gw3poolc77.sttl.uswest.net) on: Wed Apr 12 01:47:54 EDT 2000
  
  Neels,
  I feel the singing style differs in Madhuvanti and Dharamvathi. Chandrakuns is hindustani version of kalayana vasantham. Check in my site for lecture demo by sunder, he explains the difference clearly.
  
  
  Athi,
  if you sit and count,
  for every unwanted raja bashing there will be about 20-25 unwanted arr bashing. As MS asks what valid defects you have posted till date
  my one question is why bash arr,
  what do you want to prove?
  arr sucks ---- ok,
  you have told your claim for many times now
  we all know that this is your final answer,
  we all know athi is great fan of raja,
  we all athi does not like arrs music,
  what is that you want to prove by bashing arr,
  
  My humble request.,
  why dont you stop arr bashing for a week and see,
  might reduce your so called unwanted raja bashing.
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.132) on: Wed Apr 12 05:07:47 EDT 2000
  
  MS!
  I beg to differ with your comment on IR's orchestration before nizhalgal days...please consider the following classy samples(in addition to oru nAL):
  
  a) vizhiyilE malarndhadhu - 2nd interlude
  b) vioin arrangement of `sendhoorappoovE'
  c) Prelude, interludes and accompaniment of `engengo sellum' & `dEvadhai' of PKBhairavan
  d) first interlude of `ninaivO oru paRavai'
  
  There are in fact more samples that one can quote on his orch' capability in pre-nizhalgal era...I was one who got attracted by this aspect more than the `tune'(melody) thing...He had very imaginative rhythm arrangements too during the same period...remember, these were achieved without the luxury of having a set of Hungarian guys:-)
  
  No doubt, he kept improving and maturing in his overall composing abililities, handling carnatic and fusion stuff, deploying technology etc. as time passed. But he had a lot in stock to START WITH, esp. on the instrumental side, which cannot be discounted:-) Your feeling of `hollow' could be probably due to the poor strategies he adopted for recording in those days:-(
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.26.235) on: Wed Apr 12 09:00:13 EDT 2000
  
  eden ! appO IR improve paNNavE illainnu solra maathiri irukku ? :-)
  
  TO me the orchestration in GURU seems to be richer and more complete. Don't you think so ?
  
  
• From: S (@ netcache31.mot.com) on: Wed Apr 12 10:02:51 EDT 2000
  
  MS,
  I would anyday rate "poovE sempoovE"(solla thudikkudhu manasu) 's orch better than any song in GURU though GURU is my most Fav album of Raja next only to EVK....
  
  I think Raja's improvement was apparent only in the BGM as the years progressed, where I am in full agreement with u ...
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 209.36.218.132) on: Wed Apr 12 16:32:28 EDT 2000
  
  Athi,
  I wanted to subvert attention from another potential flare up by a person whose name "Gratien" was interesting and new to me. I didn't say anything derogatory about this guy. I just wanted to see what the dictionary turned up on that name, (it's a habit of mine to look up unknown words)to see if there was a reason why the guy used that as his name (I believe it wasn't his real name). If you remember correctly, one of the dictionary definitions was about a Roman emperor named Gratian.
  
  It was not malicious, and regardless, it's been taken off this thread. Now, you can see for example, MS and S disagree politely and to the point. Why can't we have that here more often? Huh? Why do you have to harbor so much hatred, man? It can't be healthy.
  
  If you go to other threads like "Vairamuthu's frustration with ARR" there are many posts there, including mine, deriding ARR rightfully for his handling of lyrics. I don't see how you manage to feel that only IR gets slighted here. If we have a count of threads representing pro-IR sentiments, it would make up 85% of the threads here.
  
  For the first time in months the DF has about 4 or 5 focussed discussions. Can we please let this trend prevail?
  
  
• From: SM (@ fs2.sgum.mci.com) on: Wed Apr 12 18:23:24 EDT 2000
  
  S,
  
  EVK??? Are you talking about "Eera Vizhi KaaviyangaL" or some other album?
  
  
• From: Shankar (@ wwwgate2.motorola.com) on: Thu Apr 13 00:17:06 EDT 2000
  
  SM,
  what do u think ?? :-)
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.153) on: Thu Apr 13 00:54:37 EDT 2000
  
  MS!
  ayyO, IR improve pannavE illai'nnu nAn sollavE illai:-) (ref. last para of my posting)
  
  No doubt, Guru is a jewel on Raja's gireedam! It's more complete than his works of early days. However, for emotional appeal, spontaniety, thuLLal etc., I'd personally prefer `vizhiyilE' to `aruna kiraNa':-)
  
  Digression: BTW, where's the list of MY songs that you said will be mailing?
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.9) on: Thu Apr 13 14:35:46 EDT 2000
  
  eded:
  
  thousand thx for asking. Plese check mail.
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.9) on: Thu Apr 13 14:36:20 EDT 2000
  
  eden:
  
  thx a lot for asking. please check mail
  
  
• From: SM (@ fs2.sgum.mci.com) on: Thu Apr 13 16:18:32 EDT 2000
  
  I heard 3 songs from "Eera Vizhi KaaviyangaL" in Rex's site. They were very good but I was just wondering why that is your favourite album when there are countless no. of equally good, or better (IMO), albums from IR like 'Mouna Raagam', 'Ninaivellam Nithya', 'PayanangaL Mudivadhillai', etc. I mean, what makes "Eera Vizhi KaaviyangaL" so special when compared to these?
  
  
• From: Madhan (@ 202.41.117.61) on: Fri Apr 14 01:20:39 EDT 2000
  
  Dear SM,
  
  THe sheer fantasy they invoke, the sheer orchestral richness and the sheer unconventional tunes and the sheer flights of ecstacy they take me to - all these make the songs of EVK the best I have heard from IR on par with any of his other top 5 albums
  
  
• From: Shankar (@ netcache31.mot.com) on: Fri Apr 14 02:41:34 EDT 2000
  
  Madhan,
  Thanks for replying on my behalf :-))))
  
  SM,
  Agreed mouna rAgam NN, nenjaththai pinchAdhE are great....but the simplicity of the tunes and the inherent meloncholy in almost all songs (including the climax song -kAdhal paNbAdu which is my least fav in the album )brought out beautifully by KJY and Raja along with my weakness towards WC oriented songs makes this my most fav album of Raja.
  kanavil midhakkum - Wow...indha oru song pOdhum thalaivA neenga dhAn isai ulagin mudisoodA mannan enru paRai sAtruvadharkku!!!!
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.28.101) on: Fri Apr 14 11:41:20 EDT 2000
  
  S,
  u said it. all those songs do have atouch of melancholy in them. IR is a specialist when it comes to composing fast paced duets albeit with a touch of melancholy in them.
  kanavil midhakkum is really great. Unfortunately, the link to this song in Rex's site does'nt seem to work for me. is it a browser problem? or is the link broken? Pl. let me know.
  
  
• From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Fri Apr 14 12:00:50 EDT 2000
  
  Does anybody have a cd version of EVK ?
  
  A good recording is what I am after.
  
  
• From: e.hari (@ ) on: Tue Dec 19 14:31:33 EST 2000
  
  guys,
  I just came across this article from RMIM archives
  http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~subraman/arts/index.html.
  I just re-produced part of the article from - titled Music directors - Technicalities. The author discusses about the general composing techniques of all MDS ( HFM and TFM combined ). His views on illayaraja though convincing, does not appear similiar to what i have seen discussing in this forum.
  
  this is the partial extract from that article.
  
  There are three downsides in Raaja's music. I think, Raaja is
  very weak on the strings section (in spite of the attempt at
  West-East fusion in string in the intro of Pungadhave Thazh
  thiravai). Some may say that this is deliberate. I think it is
  little more than that. Strings are the most emotionally-
  expressive section of the orchestra (And hence most orchestral
  works in the West give prominence to strings) and every composer
  cannot help but have them. Otherwise, the music often lacks body
  (like that of A.R.Rehman's). I cannot recollect any song in which
  Raaja has indulged with the string section. With 5000 songs to
  his credit, it is hard for me to believe he was not tempted even
  once. Ofcourse, this is not the only reason. I listened to "How
  to name it" and "Nothing But Wind" -- supposedly orchestral
  works. Well, I was disappointed again. Strings have very minimal
  role and lacks the use of polyphony (multiple melody lines play-
  ing at the same time). The other downside is the lack of chord-
  based compositions. If RDB was king of chords, I think Raaja
  would be the king of raga-based compositions. This is the main
  reason why Raaja could not break into the Hindi Filmi music, the
  trend of which was set by RDB. Raaja's only well-known chord-
  based song is: Ilaya nila pozhigiradhe in Tamil. This song, not
  surprisingly, became a hit in Hindi also (Neele neele ambar pe
  chand jab aaye) although the interludes in the Hindi version
  turned out to be very bad (there were perceptible mistakes in
  tala). However, chord patterns do occur here and there in many of
  Raaja's compositions (Enna saththam inda neram) but they lean
  more towards the raga than chords (Brownie point for preserving
  "culture").
  
  The third downside in Raaja's music is the lack of care in the
  vocal section. Except for S.P.Balasubramaniam (who is a perfec-
  tionist himself) and Chitra none of his other singers were excep-
  tional. Yesudoss sang off-key often in his songs, but not as
  much as TMS used to. I cannot imagine anyone letting S.Janaki to
  sing. She goes off key most of the time and has a screechy voice
  suited for a tramp (she is great for those kind of songs). Simi-
  larly, Raaja goes off-key while singing in many of his songs.
  Mano, in the beginning, was pretty bad and basically, was imitat-
  ing SPB -- might as well get the original to sing (Reportedly,
  Mano got a chance to sing when SPB was in the U.S. for a throat
  surgery). Similarly, Vani Jayaram has such a high pitch voice
  that window glasses could shatter (poor ears...:-). The more
  serious problem in her singing was that she sang in falsetto
  (false voice which has no pitch limitations). Malaysia Vasudevan
  sang more off key than in key. Apart from his rural sounding
  voice, he has no other musical qualifications.
  
  --End of extract .
  
  Now, His argument that IR songs are raga-based not chord based. Is it true?. I thought the other way around and his views that IR is lacking in string selection is also surprising.
  
  Regards
  e.hari
  
  
• From: time (@ 64.208.81.180) on: Tue Dec 19 14:55:06 EST 2000
  
  "Totally absurd",
  This guy does not know music. He has not heard IR, the latest "neram pirithu parthen" has a great "chormatic" string sections. Check IR reviews thread here.
  
  Ayoooo pavamPA IR...:(
  
  
  
  
  

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